Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 11 of 11 Posts

·
Richard Jemison
Joined
·
7,733 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I have one finished pair of dropped spindles which will fit 105/115 cars.
This set are built from a pair of 105 uprights that use the "narrow bolt pattern" ATE brakes. It also means that the Milano/GTV6 Aluminum Brembos which weigh 8lbs less each & uses bigger pads, can also be bolted on. I can as well, supply either as set of early style ATE or a Set of Brembos with the spacer removed (or not for vented brakes) if you want.
The uprights have 1.25 inch spindle drop. Steering arms shown do not come with spindles. I can modify yours to match total drop of your car to eliminate bump steer & improve the Ackerman effect. ($100.00 done on your arms).
uprights are finished to appear stock. In fact I took time to machine the "casting ridge" through extended area. A tech guy will never notice, and it would take a very knowledgeable show judge to find.
All my spindles & arms are done using correct metalurgy proceedures & materials.
$ 600.00 outright, $500.00 exchange (matched pair of undamaged uprights)
plus shipping.

Rj
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
936 Posts
Richard, they are very lovely.

now i'm not personally interested, but for those that might be :

is the overall height increased for more camber gain, or did you remove material from above the spindle to keep the stock geometry ?

if the overall height IS increased, did you change the angle of the upper ball-joint receptical to compensate for the changed angle of the upper a-arm ?
 

·
Richard Jemison
Joined
·
7,733 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Upper BJ mount on Upright

It is not changed. There is more than enough range of motion in the ball joint, and bending would move that point in more than I wanted. It could be sectioned & rewelded, but that would just make them more expensive. The whole purpose is to get the car lower with the lower arm level, and increase the angle in the upper arm for better camber control.

When working with compromised suspension designs on existing cars, only a limited amount of change is possible, or you have to go into pick-up point modifications. On the stock car the outer ball joints are almost exactly the same distance apart as the upper & lower inner pick up points, relying on a shorter arm to give camber change (less than can be optimized for performance). By adding to the length of the upright (dropping the spindle) with the car situated with the lower arm level, the upper arm outer ball joint will be higher in relationship to it`s inner pickup point. The result is more camber change as the wheel moves up & down. This gives better compensation as the car rolls into a turn (moving more negative on the outside wheel & positive (a new event) on the inside wheel. Since the lower longer arm is "level" it has less movement "in & out" than the upper which enhances the camber change, Even when the lower arm is not level the camber change is enhanced, but not as perfectly. The idea being to make the existing suspension design work better.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
256 Posts
Moving suspension pickup points

Richard,

It appears that there is enough room in the upper control arm mounting "pocket" in the frame to drill its mounting hole almost 1" lower, or even more if the rubber bushing eyelet is replaced with a rod-end.

The idea is to increase camber gain, without having to resort to "knuckle risers". Assuming the front caster rod mounting is left in place, this would also give the upper arms a bit of anti-dive geometry, which apparantly they lack.

Has anyone done this before with any success?
Do you have any thoughts on such a modification?
BTW, this is not a race car, so class rules considerations are not a concern.

I'm considering this in combination with dropped spindles or replacing the lower ball joint with a rod-end mounted below the spindle, as discussed in the "roll center spacer" thread, to sort out my severely lowered car.

George
 

·
Richard Jemison
Joined
·
7,733 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
suspension changes

It appears that there is enough room in the upper control arm mounting "pocket" in the frame to drill its mounting hole almost 1" lower, or even more if the rubber bushing eyelet is replaced with a rod-end.

The idea is to increase camber gain, without having to resort to "knuckle risers". Assuming the front caster rod mounting is left in place, this would also give the upper arms a bit of anti-dive geometry, which apparantly they lack.

BTW, this is not a race car, so class rules considerations are not a concern.

I'm considering this in combination with dropped spindles or replacing the lower ball joint with a rod-end mounted below the spindle, as discussed in the "roll center spacer" thread, to sort out my severely lowered car.

George:
Well, here`s some thoughts.
First, lowering the upper pivot point might give some anti dive, (actually an inch is a bunch) but have you researched what comes with it? There will be harder turn in effort, increased bump steer to accomodate, and these occur because of increased CASTOR changes in compression. There will be steering input from braking when cornering (the same castor problem where one side has significantly less castor than the other side due to compression on the outer wheel & droop on the other.
Most heavy(er) race cars (I`m excepting light formula, & Sports racers that are flat cornering, and they use very little to keep steering light) are set up with no antidive for these reasons.
I shared Emails with another member regarding the rod end below the "A" arm. With the rod end`s threaded shank in shear it`s not the best of ideas, even racing. On the street it would be very foolish. (Know a Lawyer?) The modified spindles are stronger in the extended area than the upright material.
If you are going to use dropped spindles the rest is unnecessary work. The dropped upright & steering arm mods cost $400.00 done on your parts. That is very cheap handling modification that really works & is a proven improvement.
I`m have always been about experimenting with racecar setup. But when things don`t work for others(pro builders) I tend to listen.:rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
256 Posts
Richard,

Thanks for your input.
This is my first GTV, and I'm exploring various "upgrade" paths. My experience is based on other cars, working on various race cars and reading plenty of theory.

I agree with you that dropped spindles are the "correct" way to compensate for lowering, but I'm fishing around for parts I can fabricate in my garage shop... at least for the short term, while I throw money at other areas of the car, like rust repairs, engine stuff, etc.

$400 for modifying my spindles AND steering arms seems like a good deal, considering what local fabricators would charge. Do I understand this correctly, that the price would include both arms AND spindles? And that the modified steering arms retain the stock tie rod ends?
Also, will they fit within 14" wheels, or will 15" be necessary?

About the anti-dive geometry...
My 1966 Mercedes, with king-pin front spindles and no anti-dive geometry, dives like a sinking U-boat on the brakes. I'm in the middle of fabricating ball-joint front A-arms with anti-dive geometry to remedy this.
I assumed that race cars can get away with no anti-dive (and the purity of geometry that this allows) because they run stupidly stiff spring rates, and/or have minimal suspension travel.
I'm afraid that my street-driven GTV, with 800 lb/in springs, no anti-dive, and expensive sump riding less than 4" off the ground will tend to scrape its chin under agressive braking.

But... this is just speculation on my part, so far. I'll have to keep the Sawzall and welder away from the suspension bits until I've driven the car!

George
 

·
Richard Jemison
Joined
·
7,733 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Mods to suspension

[$400 for modifying my spindles AND steering arms seems like a good deal, considering what local fabricators would charge. Do I understand this correctly, that the price would include both arms AND spindles? And that the modified steering arms retain the stock tie rod ends?
Also, will they fit within 14" wheels, or will 15" be necessary?

About the anti-dive geometry...
I'm afraid that my street-driven GTV, with 800 lb/in springs, no anti-dive, and expensive sump riding less than 4" off the ground will tend to scrape its chin under agressive braking.

But... this is just speculation on my part, so far. I'll have to keep the Sawzall and welder away from the suspension bits until I've driven the car!

/QUOTE]
George:
Re Sawsall & welder. Don`t try this at home! Proper metalurgy & welding are critical.
The spindles are designed to work in stock wheels (14") as most racers are stuck with this. However if doing a customers spindles the drop length can be specified to fit what wheel being used (the clearance between the inner wheel half & the bottom of the ball joint nut. Usually the racers want the max and will grind off the bottom of the stud below the nut, and often some of the nut itself.)
Price of $400 to modify customers uprights does include the steering arm mod as well, which will remain stock as to fittings.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
610 Posts
Nice job Richard!
You haven't mentioned the other big bonus from doing this,- the maintaining of a good roll-centre height while lowering the car. Generally as the lower arm gains more angle when lowering, the geometry makes the roll centre go really low, sometimes below ground level, meaning excessive weight transfere to the outside tyre and the need for heavier springs and sway bars to make some attempt at controlling the body mass.
The drop spindle is a good way of avoiding this situation.
The old 'knuckle-risers" were also an attempt from the top to alter the roll-centre geometry and camber gain, however, the drop spindle is a more efficient means of benefit for result. A composite of the two in carefully calculated amounts can be tailored to particular overall tyre diameter/ride height combinations for best ultimate effect.
Yes, the reproducing of the forging seam is a neat way of not drawing attention to things that maybe a "gray" area.....in 20 years no scutineer has picked-up on this over here.....shhh!
Cheers,
Vince.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,243 Posts
I have one finished pair of dropped spindles which will fit 105/115 cars.
This set are built from a pair of 105 uprights that use the "narrow bolt pattern" ATE brakes. It also means that the Milano/GTV6 Aluminum Brembos which weigh 8lbs less each & uses bigger pads, can also be bolted on. I can as well, supply either as set of early style ATE or a Set of Brembos with the spacer removed (or not for vented brakes) if you want.
The uprights have 1.25 inch spindle drop. Steering arms shown do not come with spindles. I can modify yours to match total drop of your car to eliminate bump steer & improve the Ackerman effect. ($100.00 done on your arms).
uprights are finished to appear stock. In fact I took time to machine the "casting ridge" through extended area. A tech guy will never notice, and it would take a very knowledgeable show judge to find.
All my spindles & arms are done using correct metalurgy proceedures & materials.
$ 600.00 outright, $500.00 exchange (matched pair of undamaged uprights)
plus shipping.

Rj
RJ

Are you still doing these?

Thanks,
 

·
Richard Jemison
Joined
·
7,733 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Spindle & steering arm mods

Are you still doing these?
Yes, Pics of various Types of Alfa spindles that are "dropped" (actually lengthened below the spindle) are on my website.

They have to be built based on wheel diameter used on the car. As well the upper arm mount can be lengthened and positioned a bit towards the car`s center to ease camber adjustments.

The only cores I have in the shop currently are those for early 105 with Dunlop plate type brake mounts and Milano/GTV6 type.

Larry at APE can supply various type cores and ship to me.

If you have later "wide" brake mounting ATE spindles they can be modified as well to fit the Alum Brembos to the spindles and fit using the 115 larger rotor.

Rj
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,326 Posts
Just a plug for Richard's dropped spindles. I had a set installed on my GTV6, and it markedly improved the handling and steering feel by dialing out the oversteer. If you are redoing your suspension, they work wonders, at least on a 116 chassis.
 
1 - 11 of 11 Posts
Top