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Youth: my son is INTO the TR. So are his friends. I've had between 1 & 3 extra sets of hands when we work on it. Just call and they are at the house in minutes. Its cool. They crave this type of mechanical stuff - and these are pretty top notch students.
Dan, I like your post. I disagree withe the safety thing.. youth breeds a rebel streak and after they are out of they house they 'll do as they please.
180out and I discuss this a lot in relation to my related thread on "The Future of Our Cars and Hobby/Passion" LINK. Will "youth" pick it up and sustain demand and a market and skills? IMO I think not. When we oldtimers were young, we took everything apart and "fixed" and "customized" everything, starting with toys to bikes to lawnmowers to motorbikes and cars and then houses (and a lot more between). Things were analog (like old Alfas) and lent themselves to this. We developed skills, intuition and "shop practices" awareness. My wife says my favorite phrase was, "I'll fix it." This is not so much anymore with complicated electronics and pneumatics and hydraulics and hundreds of hidden interconnected sensors. It's a throw away society now. There are even some oldtimer Alfa mechanics who refuse to work on 70's Alfas. I just do not see the skill sets to tinker broadly in this upcoming batch of youth.

In addition the local Alfa dealer is burning it up selling new Alfas; like 50 in March and this is not LA. I asked at CNC yesterday our dealer club rep if many are interested in the oldtimers and she is a diehard Alfisti who used to hang out at the old Alfa dealer shop here on her Schwinn Sting Ray. "Very few were interested", was the answer. Now a modern Alfa may be the gateway drug, but I am not seeing much crossover yet. At events there are basically two groups clustered together separately. The cars just do not lend themselves to tinkering. Bolt on CF bling, skins, bolt-on performance exhausts and chips. (An LA and local vendor, MadWorks is doing a lot of the development here.) But little is done by the owners, unlike earlier times.

I hope I am wrong, together with a host of other dour perceptions on the vintage car market, (reference linked thread), but others are hopeful. This all adds to an uneven and maybe "down" market. We'll see.
 

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Whist on one hand the "original" car attract the high prices there are many examples of the highly modified car whose values greatly exceed the original versions. Singer 911s, Nigel Dawes XK120s, Alfaholics 105s and Eagle E Types immediately come to mind. All these are selling for a huge premium. There is a body of enthusiasts who want something special and are prepared to pay for it and we should be grateful for their input to our hobby.
Good point. I have always been a proponent of period modifications, i.e., modifications that would have been done in period to enhance the performance of a now vintage car. I agree entirely that when done right---as the Singer 911's and Alfaholics cars most definitely are--- these cars justifiably command high prices. That said, historical context should (not necessarily must) play an important role. The Conrero Giulietta's for instance are very desirable, as are TI Supers which on examination are quite clearly "factory hot-rods" in the purest sense. Further, there's the matter of tradition. During the post-war years, hot-rodding Alfas and Fiats was virtually an Italian pass-time. It's perfectly legitimate to carry on that tradition. Of course the resulting cars are not going to be to everyone's taste, but abandoning the practice in the name of "originality" means that something distinctly a part of the post-war Alfa tradition will be lost. Besides, period-modded Alfas are often a lot more fun to drive . . .

Recently on BAT a very nice blue '67 GTV didn't make it's reserve. The seller was apparently more interested in presenting the car as an original step-nose when it was actually a tastefully period-modified car. His description of the car, for instance, described it as having a 1600 engine when its screw-on oil filter was an obvious indication that it had a later 1750 or 2000 engine. Similarly, although a standing pedal car, it had the rare hydraulic clutch mod allowing a later transmission to mount to larger displacement engine. The car sat on lowered springs and appeared to have slightly flared rear wheel arches implying that it had larger wheels and tires at some point. Yet it was being sold with steel wheels which, to me anyway, signaled that the new owner, a couple of times removed, desired to present the car in a way that didn't illustrate it's real character.

Was this a good thing or a bad thing? Purists, of course, can claim that the mods decreased the essential stepnose value and so not calling attention to them invited people to look at how original the rest of this very attractive car was.. Period mod fans like me can claim that the car might have met it's reserve if the owner had discussed it's entirely tasteful period modifications. If I was trying to buy a stepnose, I know which one I'd rather have.
 

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So we can scrap the theories.. SS $141,000 at $51000 premium over a year and $26000 for a Junior that has not run in decades.. it all makes no logical sense to me. i hope the owner of my Junior is happy...https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa-romeo-cars-sale-wanted/579193-69-gt-1300-junior-scalino-pristine.html

Had your Jr advert been posted now. I'd be at your doorstep yesterday morning with check book in hand. BTW, I made the long haul down to the Cape and braved Sunday Rte 6 traffic to see Phil's GTV. A good example of a personalized car where some of the modifications hurt the value. All it needs is new seat upholstry, a partial repaint, and a new dash and it'll be a 3+ or 2- car. Nice to see a GTV without a spec of rust anywhere.

John Feng
 

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So we can scrap the theories.. SS $141,000 at $51000 premium over a year and $26000 for a Junior that has not run in decades.. it all makes no logical sense to me. i hope the owner of my Junior is happy...
Seems like a pretty good example of Austrian School economist von Mises contention that value is subjective rather than intrinsic. A far better 1600 Jr.---a running and driving, very straight, well maintained car---sold for about the same money on BAT just a few weeks ago. Trying to decipher that mystery will make you crazy. :)
 

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In a perfect world with perfect humans and perfect information, the market would be rational (Decision Making 101A). We are human and have different needs and emotions (and BAC levels) and we have incomplete information about the market now and in the future. Plus some jost don;t buy for investment but just pleasure or project. IMO some of these sales comprise "outliers" and are not of much statistical concern (telltales maybe), it is the average/median trend that is of interest and what forces are driving that trend. That's why I started the "Passion/Hobby Future" thread linked above. Just my 3 cents.
 

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A far better 1600 Jr.---a running and driving, very straight, well maintained car---sold for about the same money on BAT just a few weeks ago.

I assume you do NOT mean Richard's Jr. His was as clean a GT as I've seen in the last year, and a steal the price.
I've seen several recently that are miles and miles worse that sold for more.
 

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Here's today's auction action on BAT, 58 Spider Veloce & 64 GT

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1958-alfa-romeo-giulietta-spider-veloce-7/?utm_source=dailymail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2018-07-10

Theres also a 64 GT/GTA clone that's just about tied in bidding price.

@ divot and tralee, there was a 1905 International Harvester pickup at our 4th of July parade, beautiful and running well, NO interest except ours, but the standard Mustangs, Pontiacs, Corvettes and VW's had some attention.
 

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Here's today's auction action on BAT, 58 Spider Veloce & 64 GT

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1958-alfa-romeo-giulietta-spider-veloce-7/?utm_source=dailymail&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2018-07-10

Theres also a 64 GT/GTA clone that's just about tied in bidding price.

@ divot and tralee, there was a 1905 International Harvester pickup at our 4th of July parade, beautiful and running well, NO interest except ours, but the standard Mustangs, Pontiacs, Corvettes and VW's had some attention.
No Sale ...$88,000
 

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So.. if you believe in the future is offering value.. why didn't you dip your toe into the SS 8 months ago for 90 that sold for 141 this week?. GM stock doesn't have to drop to $7/share to buy it... or does someone have to advise you why it is at 7? I think the moneyed don't care. As long as they are out there ( and where were they at 90?) it will be a very fickle situation. Remember the guy in Florida, Vladimir (?) who made his own market buying everything on the planet? He's gone. Where is the guy in New Egypt, NJ? He's disappeared..There are bargains but I haven't found many. 240Z for 26 something was a bargain under any algorithm. I woulda but did not wanta .
 

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Paid too much, or just got in too soon?

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1961-alfa-romeo-giulietta-sprint-4/

To me, this one doesn't make a lot of sense at 27k. Two guys just had to have it, I suppose.

There was a project BMW CS coupe that sold for similar money a while back on BAT.

There is a nice white Sprint on here for 52k, and another at Copley Motors in Boston for 50k.

I would rather have one I can drive today even for twice the price.

Scott
 

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There are those who think 30 and change is the limit they have at the moment to get into these cars and to not consider dropping increments of 10 per annum in the interest of pursuing a "hobby'.. I have seen and heard this explanation as why similar scenarios are a good deal. Dah..........Like buying a fixer-upper in real estate so it seems.

The seller of the Sprint is the perfect profile...after 4 years he bailed out .
 

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Actually at $27k (£21k) one would be hard pressed to find a similar car in Europe.......I know as I have just gone through the exercise. Interestingly enough the more expensive cars (which are nearly alright) seem to need almost as much money spending on them when the "whist we are there" syndrome starts. You can't re-touch paintwork with second-hand paint so you end up with a compete, windows out, re-paint etc etc. I am sure we all know that scenario!
 

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Here is a comment from a young person on the '85 spider at BaT referring to his dad's plan to opt out of a Giulia Spider for another fling. It kind of confirms my earlier comments about experiencing other cars in our golden years....

"My dad has owned a 65 Spider Veloce for… about 30 years. Have loved it my whole life. He’s in his mid 60s now and is debating selling it to buy some other cars he has on his car bucket list before he’s too old to enjoy them.

I’m in my early 30s now and have decided I need my own Alfa someday. I’ve actually been debating an 85 as that’s the year I was born. No real reason other than that.

This is basically the car for me, but not the time for me to buy a 4th car."


It also confirms, interest is generated by osmosis in the family. It's difficult to generate that spark without exposure to a motor-head and that generation is thinning out.
 

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I too don't have a GTO and have sold my SWB but, as a result of that, follow with interest the values at the upper end of the market. I do believe those figures set the tone for the rest of the sales in so much as one starts to compare like with unlike rather as in the art market. Is a '50s Maresari worth 50% of a Tour de France say, or for that matter is a Rubens 50% of a Rembrandt. I couldn't possibly comment but after a while there starts to emerge a lattice of values which seem, in some way, to hang together.
I think I once stated, with all the strength that a glass of wine can provide, that a Giulietta Normale's value is half that of a Veloce which in turn is half a lightweight and again in turn is half an SZ and then half a TZ. Perhaps not as true now as it was at the time.
So going back to the comment that interest is generated by "osmosis in the family"....and that "that generation is dying out"... well can I put my hand up for the potentially worthless GTO, A6G, Zagato 1750, GTA, TZ.... you name it..... I am buying!
Just my lunchtime observation Uncle!
 

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I think new buyers are not looking for investments, they just want a fun car to drive. I think new cars are too perfect and we just want that imperfection that brings back the joy of driving. Losing money when you buy a new car is something we’ve always accepted, we pay for enjoyment. That is why Singer and others are successful; they just fill the need for driving experience and classic car aesthetics. Problem with classic car offering today is everyone wants to sell a jewel, some of them are and some of them aren’t, but most of us are not looking for that. If we want to invest we buy a mutual fund, not a car. Mid market prices should correct and approach replacement value of a new car, which is what we compare with when we look for driving experience. $100k+ for a classic car to drive on week-ends with the Ms is a lot of money, particularly because same car has multiplied x3 in last decade. There will always be collectable car demand, but only a small portion of the buyer’s market will aim for that.
 

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So going back to the comment that interest is generated by "osmosis in the family"....and that "that generation is dying out"... well can I put my hand up for the potentially worthless GTO, A6G, Zagato 1750, GTA, TZ....
I believe that there are multiple tiers to the classic car market:

- There will always be a demand for high end cars, including many of the makes & models you cite. Enzo-era, V-12 Ferraris are the prime example. Few of these cars were produced, so there will always be more demand than supply and prices will always be strong. Despite demographic factors, there will always be sufficient buyers to support this tier of the market.

- The worry is that the segment of the population who used to tinker with cheap, old cars in their home garage is "dying out". A generation ago, few of those people tinkered with V-12 Ferraris; their projects of choice were inexpensive, 4-cyl cars like MG's and Alfa normales. So if you own one of these lower end classic cars, you should be concerned that the cellphone-obsessed generation won't be interested in buying it.
 

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I have always thought that car most classic cars were sold privately and not through dealers. The car prices can looked up very easily using the Internet or by the numerous publications. I think there will be demand until gasoline powered cars are completely phased out.
 
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