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Use good brand of coolant designed for aluminum engines in a 50/50 mix with distilled water. The purity of the water is as important as the coolant. The sale of 50/50 premix is becoming the norm around here.

Moving on.
 

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In post #3 Jason wrote: "Never used PG anti-freeze in my vehicles as I depose of my anti-freeze properly!"

Proper anti-freeze disposal at the private party level, according to the official edict from the Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer District office is...DOWN THE TOILET! They WANT it. It's a sugar (it has a sweet taste - i'm told) thus assists in the effluent treatment process. The new pink stuff is less toxic to animals. Dog's are known to lap up the green stuff and in years past 'Sweetie-pie' has been known to try to collect the life insurance on 'Old-what's-his-name' by adding it to his beer.
It's my understanding that anti-freeze coolant corrosiveness and two-year chance cycle is due to it becomming mildly electrically charged; two to four millivolts is what sticks in my mind - test it with your multi-meter. It didn't effect the cast iron / copper radiator crowd too much but aluminum is another matter. Early Chrysler products featuring Mitsubishi's aluminum V6 were problematic for owners who ignored the scheduled two-year coolant change.
As far as 'vehicle manufacturer recommended brands', one needs to be mindful that they are no different than the 'brands' plastered all over race cars and their driver's uniforms - they pay for the priviledge. Vehicle manufacturer branded fluids, Ford, GM, Honda, Mopar, VW, etc. are fine, but all of these products are produced and packaged by vendors and for which the consumer pays an often significant premium. The service department is the dealership's 'cash cow' if you didn't know. If one believes that a euro-recommended coolant is optimum for a euro-produced engine, what will be satisfactory for your new Alfa with it's Holden produced block and it's Alfa produced heads?
 

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But Mad North-Northwest
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Graham D said:
Proper anti-freeze disposal at the private party level, according to the official edict from the Metropolitan St. Louis Sewer District office is...DOWN THE TOILET!
True, it's biodegradable.

Graham D said:
They WANT it. It's a sugar (it has a sweet taste - i'm told) thus assists in the effluent treatment process.
No, it tastes sweet but it is not a sugar, it is a glycol. Chemically a different beastie. An alcohol is a carbon chain with one -OH group, a glycol is a carbon chain with two -OH groups.

Don't test the sweetness thing - ethylene glycol can kill you.

Graham D said:
The new pink stuff is less toxic to animals. Dog's are known to lap up the green stuff and in years past 'Sweetie-pie' has been known to try to collect the life insurance on 'Old-what's-his-name' by adding it to his beer.
Not true. Again, color or additive package have nothing to do with toxicity! The toxicitiy depends on whether the base is ethylene glycol or propylene glycol. EG is toxic, PG is less so. You can make a traditional coolant or an organic coolant with either one. Most of the new orange/red OAT coolants STILL use ethylene glycol.
 

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OK now I do need to weigh in

I work in pharmaceutical product development and have done so for most of my adult life. My current field is dermatology products (mostly prescription). I have worked in cardiovascular, neurology, oncology, metabolic, and a few other odds and ends.

I know of NO scientific evidence that Propylene Glycol causes neurological damage. Please cite your evidence, in a peer reviewed journal preferred.

http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/iig/default.htm

Is the FDA Inactive Ingredient Guide list. Propylene Gylcol is listed as an inactive.

This is exactly the kind of stuff I wrote about in my first posting on this matter. Opinions presented as facts --There is so much BS out there on any subject that gets promulgated that after a while, blatantly false information is more prevalent than the TRUTH.

VE RI TAS , the motto of HArvard, means, IT IS SO in Latin. From it we get our english word 'verity" and 'Verify". Good advice that.
 

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how much variation in boiling point would there be in running a high strength (long life) coolant as opposed to regular strength? i was under the impression that destilled water + corrosion inhibitor is actually a better coolant as it has a higher boiling point and changes temp quicker (or have i got this mixed up?)

cheers lucas
 

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Discussion Starter #26 (Edited)
I work in pharmaceutical product development and have done so for most of my adult life. My current field is dermatology products (mostly prescription). I have worked in cardiovascular, neurology, oncology, metabolic, and a few other odds and ends.

I know of NO scientific evidence that Propylene Glycol causes neurological damage. Please cite your evidence, in a peer reviewed journal preferred.

http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/iig/default.htm

Is the FDA Inactive Ingredient Guide list. Propylene Gylcol is listed as an inactive.

This is exactly the kind of stuff I wrote about in my first posting on this matter. Opinions presented as facts --There is so much BS out there on any subject that gets promulgated that after a while, blatantly false information is more prevalent than the TRUTH.

VE RI TAS , the motto of HArvard, means, IT IS SO in Latin. From it we get our english word 'verity" and 'Verify". Good advice that.
Your right!
www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp96.pdf

I read this crap somewhere but cannot find it in files to back it up. From memory I am not sure there have been much studies done on the subject anyway! So really not you not you me or the FDA:rolleyes: really knows.
Could be all opinion or not. I am researching it more, may have to hit the ASU library!

Ciao!
 

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No reason to hit the library

And I wasn;t picking on you Jason-- I was picking on the inate tendency of humankind to confuse itself over time with opinion against fact. Not that everything must be factual--feelings and opinions are equally important as fact, the issue is when these get classified incorrectly!

As was pointed out in another thread, if one mechanic saw a broken t belt and tells 100 people, its now perceived as 100 broken belts ! I try to be careful (and not always successful for sure) to separate fact from opinion-- but that is me and that does NOT mean that it is 'right' or 'correct' to do that--- but it tends to help others who are less able (maybe don;t have the time or other resources) to do their own research.....

keep em rollin alfi

goats
 

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It's interesting that many municipal water treatment managers are "putting it out there" that it is OK to pour your used antifreeze down the sanitary sewer (NOT the storm sewer, since that goes to our creeks and rivers, etc). I was researching this subject several months back and came across several websites (did not bookmark them unfortunately) where they claimed their water treatment plant could break it down without too much trouble. Meaning to me that it will no long be a glycol derivative when they are done with it. Most encouraged recycling it if you have the equipment but if you don't it could be poured down the sanitary sewer drain, also only if no oil was mixed with it, of course. I am not a water treatment expert, so when they say they can deal with it in the quantities that they are predicting, I tend to believe that it is OK. Maybe I shouldn't believe them and maybe I shouldn't take the easy route and do so? Hard to say, I'm not a Chemist, nor do I have recycling equipment or know who does for that matter, maybe I should find out. Most of our modern day pollution problem, IMHO, is because we are lazy.
Charles
 

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But Mad North-Northwest
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how much variation in boiling point would there be in running a high strength (long life) coolant as opposed to regular strength? i was under the impression that destilled water + corrosion inhibitor is actually a better coolant as it has a higher boiling point and changes temp quicker (or have i got this mixed up?)
The coolants aren't high or low strength - the difference is in the type of corrosion additives. Both traditional and OAT coolants are going to be 90-something percent glycol, so the boiling/freezing points when mixed with water will be the same.

Straight water does have a better heat transfer coefficient (rate at which it pulls heat out of the metal) than 50-50 coolant. However, the glycol both increases the boiling point AND decreases the freezing point compared to straight water. Outside of a race car I can't think of any good reason not to be using 50-50 water/glycol (though some manufacturers recommend going 60-40 if you live someplace rather hot).

Alfissimo said:
So really not you not you me or the FDA really knows.
Bullcrap. Propylene glycol is nontoxic and has been used for years as a food additive. I've never seen a study which brought its safety into question. Ethylene glycol is toxic because due to its structure the body breaks it down into toxic metabolites. This does not happen with PG.
 

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Bullcrap. Propylene glycol is nontoxic and has been used for years as a food additive. I've never seen a study which brought its safety into question. .
I was at a friends house who was going to have a colonoscopy. I was wondering what was in that gallon jug that one has to drink to clean out your system. One of the main ingrediants was poly propylene glycol. I think that was what I read on the bottle.
 

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Discussion Starter #31 (Edited)
It's interesting that many municipal water treatment managers are "putting it out there" that it is OK to pour your used antifreeze down the sanitary sewer (NOT the storm sewer, since that goes to our creeks and rivers, etc). I was researching this subject several months back and came across several websites (did not bookmark them unfortunately) where they claimed their water treatment plant could break it down without too much trouble. Meaning to me that it will no long be a glycol derivative when they are done with it. Most encouraged recycling it if you have the equipment but if you don't it could be poured down the sanitary sewer drain, also only if no oil was mixed with it, of course. I am not a water treatment expert, so when they say they can deal with it in the quantities that they are predicting, I tend to believe that it is OK. Maybe I shouldn't believe them and maybe I shouldn't take the easy route and do so? Hard to say, I'm not a Chemist, nor do I have recycling equipment or know who does for that matter, maybe I should find out. Most of our modern day pollution problem, IMHO, is because we are lazy.
Charles
I beleive that there is really not much research done on this.
Liek I said proplyene glycol in it's pure form is pretty much non-toxic and biodegradable but once it is processed for antifreeze with additives and then runs in your engine which picks up heavy metals, I personally would not throw it down the drain.

Anyways, at this point I guess try to use a good coolant! Good brand helps but maybe do some more research on your favorite brand to see if it is good for your engine. I go far and beyond the typical consumer when it comes to just throwing a fluid in my car. I like to go a bit further with it as you have noticed, do some research and find real information besides articles by the manufacturer and or automotive magazines which IMO only write about products because they gt paid to do so to promote it.

Second, recycle if you can! It will benefit us all as it will not pollute and it can be recyecled which means leass fossile fuels to make more new coolant, less pollutants etc...

OK now I am over it. At least we got a good coversation out of it. That is what this forum is for. I cannot do all th research as well. I may have missed some avenues. But at least it brought it to attention yes?

Ciao!
jason

PS maybe confusing but not wrong!! Prove it.
 

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This was the first relevant thread I came to after reading this in the chapter newsletter. It would appear to be helpful in locating the appropriate currently available coolant based on the recommendation at time of manufacturing. I have found on the bb useful information on oils and was looking for help on coolant. Cost benefit, experience, opinion. How do I cover the original needs of the engine while perhaps getting an additional benefit(total cost/my labor somewhat free) with performance and reliability
 

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NEVER mix orange Dex-Cool with standard green (Prestone, etc.) coolants. I did so without thinking on my previous X1/9 and it created a gray sludge that got everywhere in the coolant system and essentially ruined it. Bad enough that it caused me to get rid of the car.
 

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Oxalic acid type (orange or red) is completely different chemical base than glycol.

For our engines I recommend using the blue coolant if you are switching to a longer life coolant.

Although it is always good practice to completely flush all old coolant regardless of type the blue stuff is ethylene glycol based and should not react with propylene glycol remnants in the cooling system.

Also, corrosion inhibitor can be added to long life (or to standard green coolant) to extend its service life for quite a long period. Technically, the reason to flush old coolant if not changing types is necessary only if you waited too long before refreshing the corrosion inhibitor.
 
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