[richards]

Hi

On another thread I have been encouraged to post the differences between an AutoDelta prepped Ti Super and a 'normal' one, whilst this doesn't pose a problem - I have one - my concern is should I? I have no wish to encourage replicas and whilst having no issues with acknowledged ones I do have a problem with those past off as genuine.

Fortunately it seems that Ti Supers have so far escaped the TZ and SZ fake situation I do not wish to encourage it. What to do?

Richard

 

[Andrew]

I have heard of fake and replica TI Supers being created, but can't point to any firsthand. I don't see the problem if it's above-board and documented that it's a replica. To create a fake, you'd have to get into changing the VIN on the body.

Andrew

 

[akitaman]

Passion on the subject is going to be the common thread in a opinion based question like this. Passion for the car to be original. Passion for the ability to push the cars performance to the max is the other side. The gross reality is (IMHO) it doesn't matter. As long as you enjoy what you do with it. Lord knows the BB is full of "passion". You will take some form of flack if you publish your efforts in the conversion. I have a 67 TI that I'm still in great debate (in my own head) as to what I'm going to do with it. One thing is for certain, it will be what I want it to be. I for one, would love to see the build (if you elected to do so). What ever you do keep us posted.

 

[Zunige]

I think it is paramount for knowledge to be shared. If everyone were an expert, it would be much harder for an unscrupulous person to pass a modified car or replica as a real one. In addition, with the passage of time, knowledge is further lost. (Even those who knew how things were begin to doubt, and wish they had jotted down a note.)

I know that the Alfa Romeo Owners Club (USA) has asked for volunteers to document what is correct for all models and editions of our beloved Alfas. There is a genuine concern that we are loosing the knowledge, in particular with special cars. Note that special cars were only intimately known by a few to begin with.

While there is absolutely no comparison in the type of cars, I will share what I have done. I've documented the characteristics, by series, of the modern Spiders ('66 - '94), and created a copyrighted PDF, which I share on this BB. This exercise, and fielding questions posted on the BB has actually helped to clarify, re-affirm, correct, and expand the document. I would encourage you to create a copyrighted PDF document, as well. Then you can choose when to share it and with whom.

Best regards,

 

[alfaseeka]

I have heard of fake and replica TI Supers being created, but can't point to any firsthand. I don't see the problem if it's above-board and documented that it's a replica. To create a fake, you'd have to get into changing the VIN on the body.

Andrew

Surely it comes down to intent and honesty on the part of the builder/seller and homework on the part of any potential purchaser? I'm building a TI Super replica for historic racing purposes in Australia. My own intent is to be able to run the mods that gave the TI Super better performance than its predecessor (the Giulia TI) and its successor (the Giulia Super), and still meet Australian historic racing car regulations. And as a 1964 car, it will run against different competition to the 1965-and-later Giulia Supers, which are in a different category.

There's no way it would ever be mistaken for a genuine car - it's right-hand drive, and the VIN and engine numbers are 'pure' TI. Nor will I ever pass it off as anything but a replica. However, Auto Italia magazine some years ago carried a story of an English 'TI Super' that supposedly had been rebodied quite recently with an RHD shell, but using all the bits from a genuine TI Super. This is where it starts to get murky.

One challenge when buying or building a car like this is to identify what factory, dealer and tuner (eg Autodelta) mods actually found their way onto the (supposed) 501 TI Supers built.

Alfa's parts manuals give some direction, but controversy still occurs. For racing purposes, you can't go past the original FIA homologation documentation, which includes specifications and photos of key items. Interestingly (amongst other things) this shows that drum brakes were homologated, but makes no reference to the fitment of the 'sliding block' rear axle locator. Yet the Alec Mildren Racing TI Super that won the Sandown 6-hour race in Australia in 1965 and 1966 was fitted with such an item, at some stage in its life. It's unlikely that this was fitted later than 1966, as the car's main competition role was over by then, having been squeezed out by the GTAs. Possibly it was provided by the Alfa factory, as Mildren's had a close association with the factory, and they were also running a GTA at that time.

'Factory updates' such as this probably occurred quite widely, without ever being officially documented. However it happened, it's now part of a genuine TI Super, but purists might debate its validity.

At least it'll create fodder for the BB.

Ciao,
Geoff

 

[Il Vecchio]

Maybe I'm slower than usual this AM, but couldn't anyone with the relevant parts book have the knowlege to mock up a T.I. Super, perhaps starting with an early 1300 TI?

(Yes, I've thogut of doing so myself- but representing it as a fun fakey-doo).

 

[robtechno]

Richard, do what ever you like to do with your car. If you want it to look like an early TI go ahead. I will build my Super with a GTA-engine and tranny. Running nice TZ 15" wheels and lower the car about 1-1,5".
It's your project and just go ahead. But send pics to the BB so we can all share your fun. I will send pics when I start with the build.

All the best and Happy Motoring
Rob

 

[Subtle]

Interesting thread + +

 

[180OUT]

On another thread I have been encouraged to post the differences between an AutoDelta prepped Ti Super and a 'normal' one, whilst this doesn't pose a problem - I have one - my concern is should I? I have no wish to encourage replicas and whilst having no issues with acknowledged ones I do have a problem with those past off as genuine.

Richard, do you really think something can be said about a TI Super that isn't already known? After all, we are talking about a car that is almost 50 years old. Further, convincing replicas are made by quite knowledgeable, if a little unscrupulous, people who already know everything they need to know about these cars. On the other hand, people who build cars that, to one degree or another, resemble famous cars aren't doing anything improper. Their cars are built "in the style of" and no attempt is made to pass them off as the real thing because---and this will be abundently clear to anyone who knows about these cars---they simply aren't the real thing. Crooks try to sell replicas to ignorant rubes who don't know better.

 

[alfaseeka]

Richard, do you really think something can be said about a TI Super that isn't already known?

I, for one, would be interested in any snippets Richard could provide about TI Supers, whether standard or specially prepped. Because the TI Super had such a short racing life before the GTAs took over, and because it was neglected for so long as an important part of Alfa's racing heritage, it's likely that many of the cars were trashed and their histories forgotten before interest in them was rekindled in the 90s.

The TI Super was Alfa's brief but effective bridge between the motorsport successes of the Giulietta Sprints and the Giulia GTAs, and its full history deserves to be captured.

Richard, if you're going to document the differences between 'standard' TI Supers and Autodelta's versions, why not make it an 'open' project that others could contribute to Wikipedia-style, rather than copyrighting and PDFing it?

Ciao
Geoff