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That being said, what could have caused a new synchro to wear like that in the first place? Could it be selector fork positioning or something along those lines?

I'd much rather know what went wrong so that when I put it back together I'm not just hoping I get lucky this time.
Didn’t you drive this for a while grinding on second? How long would it take for a new syncro to get chewed up if you keep driving it and the clutch isn’t disengaging properly?
 

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Discussion Starter · #102 ·
there is no clip used on the throw out bearing on the S4 (maybe S3 too), iirc.
the clip on the fork goes like this:
View attachment 1690119
and the pivot ball onto which that seats should have a little rubber cup to contain a little grease (PN 60516715)
View attachment 1690125
seen here in these useful photos from Ed
Spongy Clutch
Thanks for that link, from the pic it looks like I had the fork spring in correctly. I also had the little rubber bushing but I didn't use quite as much grease as Ed did
 

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Discussion Starter · #103 ·
Didn’t you drive this for a while grinding on second? How long would it take for a new syncro to get chewed up if you keep driving it and the clutch isn’t disengaging properly?
This is what I'm inclined to believe but don't like how I don't have a clear, here's what's wrong. Especially as its been bad from the start (maybe from different reasons throughout) and I was pretty conservative about only using second if it was absolutely necessary (maybe only grinded it 30 or so times).
 

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Can you remind me of why are you confident that your clutch master cylinder is working properly, or the rubber hose that runs to the slave is intact?
 

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Discussion Starter · #106 ·
Can you remind me of why are you confident that your clutch master cylinder is working properly, or the rubber hose that runs to the slave is intact?
Both are brand new, the hose is ss. I've bled the clutch everywhich way possible and it is firm and gives full travel if inspected from under the car
 

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Ok so an update, I finally bit the bullet and pulled off the transmission. The clutch looked good and was in fact installed correctly. There wasn't any funky misalignment, wear, or anything so I am still perplexed as to why my clutch was weird.

That being said, the clip that goes around the throw out bearing was now missing. The clip on the fork is intact but to be honest my be installed backwards as I have yet to figure out what the right way is. Could the clips have caused the clutch issues?

Then I tore apart the gearbox and everything looked fine. The teeth on the second gear dog ring still look to be in good shape and the synchro sleeve looks fine as well. There was no evident gotcha that could have caused the problem...

The one thing is, now the second gear synchro is worn down heavily, unevenly, and even gouged in some places compared to the other 4 gears. I haven't pressed off the gears yet and taken a look inside inside the gear as maybe something is wrong with the braking straps within.
View attachment 1690117

My plan is to take off the gear, put on a new dog gear (brand new centerline one), alfaholics synchro, brake strap, and synchro sleeve, and a new gear bushing. It's probably over kill as most of the parts in there seem just fine but I really don't want to do this for a third time.

That being said, what could have caused a new synchro to wear like that in the first place? Could it be selector fork positioning or something along those lines?

I'd much rather know what went wrong so that when I put it back together I'm not just hoping I get lucky this time.
Do not ever use the clip that goes around the throw out bearing. I don't know why Alfa never took it out of the parts book.

But it was for the first generation hydraulic clutch which had to have the throw out bearing kept away from the pressure plate when released. This is why the 1969 and early 70's cars had an adjustable rod on the slave cylinder.

The throw out bearings where different. In 71 the current generation clutch came out where the throw out bearing stays in contact with the pressure plate when released. Which is why there is no longer an adjustable rod on the slave cylinder.

Using the clip around the throw out bearing will give you problems as the throw out bearing is different from the first generation on. At doesn't let it slide on the tube like its suppose to.

Having the throw out fork retainer clip on backwards will sometimes keep the fork slightly off center of the pivot ball. Make sure the retaining clip goes on the flat spot between the case and the ring behind the ball. The rubber cup seal which thankfully is finally available again. Goes on over the ball and sits up against the ring on the ball side. Put a healthy dab of wheel bearing grease in the indention on the throw out arm. You want to fill the ball socket about level or a hair more. Then install the throw out arm on to the bell housing.

As to second gear. From the picture you posted to me the dog teeth look worn. Its hard to say until you post a picture of it looking directly at the teeth.

If the teeth are not totally flattened on the dogteeth. You can swap 2nd with 5th and save some money. You can also swap 5th gear collar with 1st/2nd gear collar. Put the unused side of the 5th gear collar towards 2nd. Put the 1st gear side of 1st/2nd towards 5th.

The only reason I can think of that a new synchro ring would be worn like that is if the fork is not centered between the to gears.

The reason reverse grinds is because it is a non synchro'ed gear set. So if it is spinning some. Its going to grind as it engages. The flatter the teeth points get the worse and harder to get going into gear.
 

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Also forgot to mention. Don't attempt to replace the gear bushing. As they have to be machined to size. If your bushing is worn out.

Buy a new gear and replace your old one. It will come with a new bushing and new dog teeth already installed.

Price is about 245.00 with exchange rate plus shipping.

 
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do they even make new scyros and dog gears for this box
 

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Discussion Starter · #110 ·
Jim, thanks for the advice and thorough explanation! I will follow that closely when I put it back together.

do they even make new scyros and dog gears for this box
Centerline has brand new dog teeth available, the usual suspects have the synchros but at varying degrees of quality
 

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Discussion Starter · #111 ·
Based on the above comments, I'm thinking the centering of the selector between the two gears may have been the culprit of the second gear grind. I checked it for visual alignment but will pull out some calipers on reassembly.

It's also possible that use of the bearing clip along with the clutch fork clip not seating caused the clutch issues.

This makes me feel a whole lot better about reassembly with new components. And thank you Jim for the tip about the bushing! I could've gotten my self into trouble without that.
 

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Jim, thanks for the advice and thorough explanation! I will follow that closely when I put it back together.



Centerline has brand new dog teeth available, the usual suspects have the synchros but at varying degrees of quality
I just installed Alfaholics competition synchro rings and collars in a customers gearbox. Be interesting to see how it preforms.

You will do fine if you use Alfaholics synchro collars and either the Goetze rings or Alfaholics competition rings. Either are very good quality.

I know they have the dog teeth. But if your wanting to put in a new gear bushing. They have to be machined to fit the shaft after they are installed into the gear.

Buying the complete gear from OKP or one of the other parts places. You will come out ahead price wise.

Just the dogteeth and bushing from Centerline is 231.00. Then you still have to pay the machine shop to machine the gear bushing. Hoping they do it right.

Or 245.00 plus maybe 30.00 in shipping for the complete gear. Which looking at the picture is probably an original new old stock gear. Which the bushing will come already machined.
 

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Discussion Starter · #113 ·
I just installed Alfaholics competition synchro rings and collars in a customers gearbox. Be interesting to see how it preforms.

You will do fine if you use Alfaholics synchro collars and either the Goetze rings or Alfaholics competition rings. Either are very good quality.

I know they have the dog teeth. But if your wanting to put in a new gear bushing. They have to be machined to fit the shaft after they are installed into the gear.

Buying the complete gear from OKP or one of the other parts places. You will come out ahead price wise.

Just the dogteeth and bushing from Centerline is 231.00. Then you still have to pay the machine shop to machine the gear bushing. Hoping they do it right.

Or 245.00 plus maybe 30.00 in shipping for the complete gear. Which looking at the picture is probably an original new old stock gear. Which the bushing will come already machined.
Great tip for the next person, unfortunately I already have a new dog gear, synchros (alfaholics comp) and the bushing in hand, that being said I got the bushing as a precautionary method seeing as I had issues after the rebuild. The bushing on there was in great shape (and hopefully still is) so I will avoid the replacement for now unless I see something weird once the gear is off the shaft.
 

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Great tip for the next person, unfortunately I already have a new dog gear, synchros (alfaholics comp) and the bushing in hand, that being said I got the bushing as a precautionary method seeing as I had issues after the rebuild. The bushing on there was in great shape (and hopefully still is) so I will avoid the replacement for now unless I see something weird once the gear is off the shaft.
This might help you with some concerns putting it back together. And while Jim knows I hate to say it, he knows exactly what he is talking about :LOL:

 
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Discussion Starter · #115 ·
I've been following that thread closely! Vin is just about the only reason I know how to work on these cars 😂
 

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Discussion Starter · #116 ·
Ok I pulled my gears apart. The teeth of the dog gear are worn but not as bad as I would've thought. The synchro sleeve is in decent shape but the synchro it self is badly and unevenly worn.

The bushing is still in decent shape. I was tempted to call around to my local machine shops to see if someone could do it but after some research here I've read too many horror stories about it not being done right to do it unless absolutely necessary. The gear spins freely with no wobble so I won't mess with the bushing.

When I tore apart the gear everything was there and in one peice.

1690196
1690197


When I took off the snap ring I did badly pinch my finger as the alfa gods demanded a blood sacrifice, I'm hoping this a good omen to a successful transmission rebuild 🤞
 

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Discussion Starter · #117 ·
With the second gear apart, I then pressed off the dog gear, cleaned up the burrs on the gear, and pressed on the new one from centerline. I then installed the new synchros from alfaholics along with new brake straps and replaced the snap ring. Now to put the gears in the toaster over and reassemble the shaft. And thank gosh I decided to re read Vin's thread today as I worked as his trick for the snap rings saved me a lot of time and frustration.
1690198
1690200
 

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Discussion Starter · #118 ·
Side note, for those who have a harbor freight 12 ton press... The press itself is too skinny to press out the gears but you can replace the cross beam with two steel beams that you can position where you need to make it wider. If you're really nifty you could weld up a whole frame so you don't have to awkwardly handle the two moving beams while working the press
 

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Why are you putting the gears in the toaster? Its the synchro hubs that have to be heated up.

Also be careful not to overheat them. Which is easy to do in a toaster.
 
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Also the new dog teeth are not lined up correctly on the gear.
 
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