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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I just finished having more fun than I ever wanted changing Myron's water pump on his 1995 24v 164LS.

Operation was a success and the patient runs well and warms right up to 195F plus and cooling fan comes on shortly thereafter.

I will post write up and pictures soon but here is the start of process:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168-1991-1995/146239-myrons-95ls-water-pump-now-leaking.html

Parts list:

part number nomeclature
60559314 24v water pump
60615713 w/p gasket upper steel
60615714 w/p gasket steel
1445868 oring w/p tube 2 each
60567726 24v lower w/p housing
15248711 7mm bolts 3 each
60559862 thermostat
60507415 thermostat gasket
60507416 thermostat gasket
60573502 hose to head
60573501 hose to head
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
24v water pump intall

Here are pictures of pump and metal gasket, lower housing and mid housing and thermostat with sensors:

Blue Bosch sensor is Coolant Temp Sensor (CTS) for engine computer, ground wire is for temp gauge and two terminal sender is for temp gage (wide terminal) and overtemp light (narrow terminal).
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Setting up cam timing using timing dies

I was lucky in that I had white marks on cam pulleys that I put on last Septemeber so I knew they were right. However, after doing pump change I could not get engine to set up at top dead center and get all four timing marks on cam pulleys to line up.

I ended up having to pull front cam cover, knock cam pulleys loose off tapers on cam shafts. One I did that I was able to set up rear cams using my white marks and with front cams free of pulleys and cams locked down with timing dies.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Torqueing cam caps and TB tensioner

One I had engine in time I removed front head timing caps and torqued caps and then torqued tensioner pulley retaining nut with weighted tool.

With engine in time and proper tension you can instert 1/16" drill rod into tensioner housing and through hole in chrome pisto, and if set correctly there will be a 1/8'' air cap between housing and tensioner pulley bracket (where chrome piston showing.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Story board of maintenance on TB cover for future reference

I am running out of room on TB cover to record dates and mileage of timing belt schnage, tensioning and water pump change. setting tension on serpentine belt and hooking up transmission mount bolt anfter jacking engine and tranny back up (needed it down to get clearance to remove TB covers and water pump.
 

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Steve, I have a question....how is the therm. housing secured to the pipe that runs between heads ? from your photos looks like a pressure fit with o-rings ? not that I'll ever own a 24v.. or want to own one...
 

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Wow, that looks like a lot of work! I do not blame you for not wanting to have to do it again, great info to read though. This is one reason I would not want a 24V car, just not mechanic friendly. Thanks for the post,
Jon
 

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And the next question is... is there a way to mount the top middle idler pulley on a 12v ? seems to me it would wrap more of the timing belt around pulleys more esp the rear pulley.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Steve, I have a question....how is the therm. housing secured to the pipe that runs between heads ? from your photos looks like a pressure fit with o-rings ? not that I'll ever own a 24v.. or want to own one...
That's it - two rubber o-rings in grooves on pipe between heads and fitting is slide onto pipe and bolted to water pump same as 12v. The pipe is bolted to rear of engine as it exits between heads so it can't move. It is not a fun thing to disconnect which is why I had to cut old damaged fitting off pipe with dremel tool and cut off wheel.
 

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From the pictures, that engine appears to have a lot of varnished oil under the cam covers. What type of oil and what OCI have they been using? Have you seen evidence of sludge in other parts of the engine?
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Getting older both the car and the man

From the pictures, that engine appears to have a lot of varnished oil under the cam covers. What type of oil and what OCI have they been using? Have you seen evidence of sludge in other parts of the engine?
There was some sludge near #4 area of head I removed as best I could. The engine does need an oil change. Not sure what kind of oil he runs but I had to drain out 4 quarts last September cause he kept adding oil when he had a red light without checking dip stick. I should have changed it then but didn't.

I think his oil change intervals are whenever not regular. I think I did last one for him. Not a good schedule I am afraid. I will have to make a special effort to take better care of his car for him since he can't.

He doesn't drive car enough and it had a bad thermostat so it was not warming up. I discovered that late last year when I drove him to a dinner meeting in his car. He takes such short little trips when he does drive it and running cold is not help. I had to swap battery the other day when I discovered coolant tank empty as his was down from car just sitting. Installed same spare battery of mine I used in his Spider to get it started, too.

I hope to get some driving in for him and will get oil changed for him soon.

AS he said to me yesterday when I took it back to him "don't get old it is no fun." His health is not that good and at 75 he is one of the young ones living where he does in a assited living place. He has finally sold his house and I expect the cars will be next.

He has a nice 89 Burgundy Spider for sale.
 

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Timing.

Great photos, Steve.
I think you lucked-out in not having to time the rear head.
 

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its a reasonable approach

to time it that way IF you are sure its in time -- which you were! Probably saves 2 hours on the deal by not having to pull the plenum, etc.

Another way is as described by me earlier, except that if you find the front not lining up right, goose em into place and vice-grip em to hold , then re-attach the belt, tensioner etc

bob
 

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Academic questions re 24V water pump replacement

Is there a way to remove/replace water pump without removing the timing belt?

How much mechanics' time does water pump replacement add to a timing belt replacement job?
 

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nope. T belt has to come off to swap the water pump as far as I am aware. I would guess that another 20 minutes might get tacked on to remove the old one/clean/install new?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Is there a way to remove/replace water pump without removing the timing belt?

How much mechanics' time does water pump replacement add to a timing belt replacement job?
nope. T belt has to come off to swap the water pump as far as I am aware. I would guess that another 20 minutes might get tacked on to remove the old one/clean/install new?
According to AR Flat rate manual:

0710 100 R&R 24v water pump (which includes timing belt R&R 570
0332 100 R&R timing belt 450 so add about 120 or about 1.20 hours me thinks.

I don't do anything like the time the FLM sez gus old rusty parts don't react like laboratory conditions!
 

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Is there a way to remove/replace water pump without removing the timing belt?

How much mechanics' time does water pump replacement add to a timing belt replacement job?
Timing belt does have to come off but the cam covers do not. If your belt has not slipped you can do what I have done foir the last two cambelt changes and mark the pulley positions with tipex/liquid paper/something and change the belt that way.
Sure the adjustable cam pulley wheels allow for perfect retiming but the belt is toothed so, as long as you put the new belt back in with the same teeth postion you will have a perfectly timed belt. Only suggest this method if you are doing it yourself as garages could get annoyed/expensive/unreliable with this more delicate/dedicated approach.
The best thing about this method, non cam cover removal or camlock requirement aside, is it avoids the issue of cam pulley wheels coming loose after being adjusted. These cam pulley wheels are not locked in place by keys/lugs but by compression via tapers.
 

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Thanks. Interesting. The flat rates are right in line with my last three TB R&R. (First TB change was during the recall belt conversion campaign for which TSB 01.97.01 allotted 4.9 hours.) Price of parts has increased prohibitively. But an experienced mechanic working in those parameters deserves a good rate.
 

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When you take off the timing belt on a 24V, don't one or more cams rotate a little out of time as compared to the 12V engine, thus requiring the cam dies? Or am I mistaken?
 

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Del sometimes the rear exhaust cam will rotate a tooth or a little more. Sometimes it doesn't ! I use this method only if I timed the car previously. If someone else did it I don't trust them to be perfectly frank
 
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