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they also are fine for a car that doesn't already leak that you want to leak or for a car that leaks that you want to leak more IMO.
My Duetto leaks a little, the GTV leaks A LOT....I'm just too **** scared to put synthetic in either of them:eek::eek:
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
try the 15W40 Shell Rotella I started this post about. Its not expensive, (10.99 a gallon at Kragen, a bit cheaper at Walmart if you are not boycotting Walmart) its readily available, its not synthetic. It works for 18 Wheeler trucks that put 1,000,000 miles on their engines! Many bike owners have been using it for years, and their high revving engines are harder on oil than the Alfa engines. Lastly, it is one oil that always seems to come up as a recommendation when you read articles about this Zinc/phosphorous reduction issue, and it still has the detergent package, unlike the racing oils.

I haven't noticed any increase in oil temp, reduction in oil pressure, or increased leaking compared to the 20 50 formulas I had been using. In fact, my Fiat 500 seems to start better in the morning.
 

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1965 Giulia TI/1998 Spider
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I haven't noticed any increase in oil temp, reduction in oil pressure, or increased leaking compared to the 20 50 formulas I had been using. In fact, my Fiat 500 seems to start better in the morning.
I agree that the Shell oil seems a better option for me, but I have to consider that I am in a slightly warmer climate than you are, so I am a little worried about going to a lower viscosity oil....or should I not worry?
 

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This is all quite amazing. I have used cheap and cheerful Comma 20/50 for the last 20 years in my Alfas, changed annually with the filter...and to date no problems. My gut feeling is that the oil is broadly similar to the oils of the 50s and 60s and if frequently changed seems to provide good pressure and, as far as I can tell, no real wear.
I am alarmed though at Castrol's comment about using 'the recommended cam break-in lube'. I have never done this in 40 year playing with cars. Is it strictly necessary?
 

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1965 Giulia TI/1998 Spider
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nah, just water temp gauges.....oil pressure does drop significantly when the engine is hot, but I think no more on hot days, and it is considered to be normal
 

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It has been a long time since I wondered about additives to motor oil.

Did not know about zinc, however at one time molydenum disulfide(MoS2) was considered as a good addition as its crystaline structure formed flat slippery plates that stuck to metal surfaces.

Any comments on this one?
 

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Castrol XL 20w-50

As someone who has used Castrol 20w-50 for the past 30 years in my '62 Giulia spider, I have been following this thread with interest.

I did some Google research and found that on the Castrol UK website they have a listing under classic engine oils for a XL 20w-50 which they claim has all the additives necessary for pre 80s eingines.

I tried to contact Castrol UK to find out if it is available in the states but so far have not heard back. :confused:


1962 Giulia spider
 

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FWIW, Mobil apparently has reformulated their 15W50 for 2007:

Why are you reintroducing Mobil 1 15W-50? Have there been any changes to the formulation, or is it identical to the previous product?

Mobil 1 15W-50 is being reintroduced based on popular demand. Mobil 1 15W-50 provides higher viscosity, designed to provide extra protection for performance vehicles and vehicles that operate in severe service, such as towing, hauling and racing. Additionally, Mobil 1 15W-50 contains higher levels of anti-wear (ZDDP or Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) that may be required for certain racing applications and camshaft designs. This is a new Mobil 1 15W-50 formulation and is not the same as the product that was marketed a few years ago.


from: http://www.mobil1.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_FAQs.aspx#FAQs3
 

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Rotella 5W40 Synthetic Instead

try the 15W40 Shell Rotella I started this post about. Its not expensive, (10.99 a gallon at Kragen, a bit cheaper at Walmart if you are not boycotting Walmart) its readily available, its not synthetic. It works for 18 Wheeler trucks that put 1,000,000 miles on their engines! Many bike owners have been using it for years, and their high revving engines are harder on oil than the Alfa engines. Lastly, it is one oil that always seems to come up as a recommendation when you read articles about this Zinc/phosphorous reduction issue, and it still has the detergent package, unlike the racing oils.

I haven't noticed any increase in oil temp, reduction in oil pressure, or increased leaking compared to the 20 50 formulas I had been using. In fact, my Fiat 500 seems to start better in the morning.
Apologies in advance for long posting... from a couple of earlier posts of mine, on the subject.

Here's an earlier post on the subject from some time ago. Rotella, as a brand name, as dino and synthetic oils. I found the synthetic 5W40 to be one of the best synthetics available. I must say, though, my oil consumption dropped when I went to Mobil 1, but this may have been as much an issue of break in miles, as the oil formulation itself. This winter, I'll try an oil change again with Rotell 5W40... but always ad the GM EOS as my zinc/phosphate source... way better than the STP, Mystery Oil, etc.

"Enjoying Your Alfa Romeo" published March 1962"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About a year ago, Mr. Reitz expressed my reactions to synthetic lubricants. My first replies to the use of synthetics with Alfas follows.

Arturo M. Reitz, now deceased and former VP of Alfa Romeo Inc., issued a simplified owner/operator manual in March 1962 with the following oil recommendations, quoted verbatim.

“Good quality, nationally-known brand motor oil. No Purple Passion, no Magic Mishmash, nor Jolly Moly. Just good oil will be fine. Less expensive too.

As to the gearbox, may we please insist? You’ll find that we have a lot of company. The recommendation plate on the underside of your hood, your Instruction Book, and your dealer all agree with us: USE ONLY A DENTAX-TYPE (STRAIGHT MINERAL) OIL IN THE GEARBOX. Dentax happens to be a Shell brand name for this particular lubricant, which is not a multi-purpose oil. We’re not selling Shell, but the fact is that this type of lubricant pleases your Alfa’s gears no end. They gnash their teeth at anything else.”

Good enough for Arturo is good enough for me.


Later, in the same oil thread, following useful submissions from other BB'ers, I posted this, as I gained knowledge about synthetic oil claims... beginning with understanding, in fact, exactly what the term "synthetic" means. This is what I posted by the end of the thread. A 100% reversal of attitude, as the result of help from folks who post here. This is really amazing. [And I might add, my knowledge about all subjects "Alfa" has grown immensely from the help I've received here.]

There appears to be an historic brand at Shell, Rotella. So, there is a conventional, premium line of Rotella oils, and a true synthetic line, as described below from the Rotella BB. The Rotella 5w40 XHVI base, which is synthesized from a petroleum byproduct, is in fact the same base stock Shell uses for oil prepared for the Ferrari Formula 1 race team. For better description, I've cut and pasted a number of postings to provide the following info. I'm NOT the expert, but chemical engineers and experts provide the following info. It's provided by BB handles, which I haven't copied. But peruse the Rotella BB, and you'll find more info than you may want...

Rotella T Synthetic (Shell) v Delvac 1 Synthetic (Mobil)

...Rotella T 5W-40 is advertised as a "Synthetic" oil, but you first have to look at the meaning of what "synthetic" really means. It means that the product is chemically altered. Rotella T 5W-40 is made from crude oil byproducts, chemically manipulated to provide it's synthetic properties. The process is called isosynthesised "ISOSYN" or something like that.

There are two kinds of synthetic base stocks used for engine oils – Group III and Group IV. Properties and performance of the two kinds of synthetics are similar. The difference is how the synthetic is manufactured. ROTELLA T Synthetic is made from Shell’s XHVI Synthetic base stocks, which are classified as true synthetics

Delvac 1 on the other hand is a PAO based lubricant. PAO has its origin in gas form, then it is reduced to a liquid with PAO's being the result. There is a lot of argument over the whole synthetic thing in general... The PAO based products typically have a lower pour point (better for severe cold) than do the ISOSYN processed crude oils. That's the way you can tell the difference. In addition, there is about a $2.00 per gallon (cheaper) difference in ISOSYN processed synthetics vs PAO based oils like Delvac 1...

Rotella T Synthetic is Group III (not PAO) based, but you must keep in mind that not all Group III base oils are created equal. Rotella T Synthetic is made with Shell's XHVI base oil, which unlike other Group IIIs does not begin as distilled crude oil, hence of all Group III base oils, XHVI is truly the only one that can legitimately be called "synthetic."

XHVI is a wax isomerate, meaning that it is made from the slack wax removed from distilled crude in normal solvent dewaxing. This slack wax is catalytically transformed (isomerized) and hydrofinished into a chemically pure base oil which rivals PAO in virutally every category. There are other "synthetic" oils out there based on Group III, but Shell's is unique in that it uses XHVI base oil. (And I believe Castrol uses Shell's XHVI too.)

Chevron and Petro-Canada produce Group III base oils that come close to XHVI, but even though these oils are all hydroprocessed and utilize the same type of isomerization technology employed in the making of XHVI, they are not the same thing. Only XHVI is made from pure petroleum slack wax and its CAS number is 92026-09-4. The CAS number for the more typical all-hydroprocessed Group III base oils is 64742-54-7. If you want to know what your "synthetic" oil is made from, take a look at the MSDS and look for these numbers. (The CAS number for PAO is 68037-01-4.)

...I know this is lenghthy, but... Once I found out that the Synthetic Rotella T was ISOSYN processed and different from the wannabe synthetics, and the Technical Expert at Shell indicated that it was hard to beat the regular Rotella T 5W-40 for wear, deposit control, etc., I thought it worth the effort to try it.

By the way, Shell engineers advise against extended oil drain intervals just because it's synthetic. I'm thinking 5k mile oil changes, but will keep an eye on pressure, etc.

In brief, don't be so quick to dismiss Rotella T Synthetic as just another "synthetic pretender." With the XHVI base, it's made with the same base as Shell's Helix Ultra, and everytime you see Ferrari win a Formula 1 race, that is the oil in the engine.

Here's the best feature. You can by it by the gallon for under $16 at Wal Mart. How do you beat that pricing for one of the best synthetics out there?

Sorry this is so long... but

From this info, I broke in my motor for about 300 miles on dino oil (found a bunch of break in procedures for all kinds of motors, and made my own decision of what I planned to do), and then converted to Rotella, because of the properties of its XHVI "wax" base, and then migrated to Mobil 1. I hadn't planned to move to Mobil 1 for another 3k miles, but the Mobil 1 website tech info gave me comfort to convert.

Finally, as to what is the GM anti-galling compound, that's another whole thread, but, here's the basic info. Zinc additives of sufficient levels are necesary for anti-galling, and are thinned for modern cars, because of emissions issues. Here's a list of most oils, and their anit-galling package info.

Here's a great summary and discussion about oil performance, and a list of oils, and their respective ZDDP and phosphorous additive packages. I've added GM's EOS part #052367 (engine oil supplement) to raise zinc and phosphorous levels to higher levels. I bought it from a local GM dealer at prices lower than offered online.

Go to: http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

It does appear, for those inclined toward synthetics, that Rotella T 5w40, Mobil 1 Extended Performance 15w50 and Kendal GT-1 have a baseline ZDDP and P package that affords sufficient protection as currently formulated.

We'll need to stay on top of any changes in formulations.

Checking in with LN Engineering periodically may make sense, to obtain info on any formulation changes.

I'm feeling better about my choice of Rotella T for the longer break-in period (first 3k miles), following the initial run in using dino Kendall GT-1. ZDDP and P levels were increased using GM's EOS. I'll back off on the amount with subsequent oil changes to increase the levels only modestly. For our Alfas, we want higher levels of the ZDDP package... probably in the 1200 PPM or more as a minimum. CAVEAT EMPTOR! I'm running an add'l 300-400 PPM for each oil change, whether Rotella or Mobil 1.

Name P (ppm) Zn (ppm) Viscosity
STP Blue 1704 2436
STP Red 2115 3932
Kendall GT 582 872 10w30
Kendall GT 598 897 10w40
Valvoline Max Life 691 879 20w50
Q Full Syn 923 908 5w50
Harley Syn3 1081 1182 20w50
Valvoline VR1 1085 1293 20w50
Redline 1440 1872 10w40
Castrol GTX 1157 1422 20w50
Mobil 1 V Twin 1329 1949 20w50
Delvac 1 1390 1803 5w40
Royal Purple Max Cycle 3907 1458 20w50
Delvac 1300 Super 1380 1702 15w40
Castrol Syntec 921 914 5w50
Rotella 1278 1555 15w40
Royal Purple OEM 1290 1337 20w50
Mobil 1 Super Syn 1343 1390 15w50
Mobil 1 Extended Perf. 1315 1428 15w50
Royal Purple Racing 51 1285 1417 20w50
Rotella 1397 1552 5w40
Amsoil V-Twin/MC 1193 1281 20w50
Valvoline Synpower 356 551
Motul Tekma Mega 1220 1737 15w40
Motul Competition 1148 1327 15w50
Motul 505.01 VW 973 1226 5w40
Elf 505.01 VW 584 1092 5w40
Penn Grade Racing 801 1058 20w50
Castrol MC2 767 1133 20w50
Castrol Act Evo 765 1126 20w50
Torco T-4SR 1059 969 20w50
Torco V Series ST 1030 1286 20w50
Kendall GT 904 1233 20w50
Schaeffer 7000 Supreme 1249 1626 20w50
Chevron Delo 400 1191 1622 15w40
Castrol TWS 425 1294 10w60
Amsoil 7500mi 334 1096 5w20
Valvoline Durablend 566 732 20w50
Exxon Superflow 717 848 20w50
Castrol GTX High Mile 1248 1382 20w50
Mobil 5k Clean 660 1028 10w40
Mobil High Mile 527 1021 10w40
Valvoline Prem. Blue 1314 1838 15w40
Kendal GT-1 1229 1415
Bardahl Stop Leak/Smoke 53 4
Exxon Av Oil 702 32 20w50
Husqvarna 2-stroke 7 19
CD-2 Maxx Oil Detergent 1 7
Power Service Oil Extender 3567 4945
Valvoline Max Life Protect 537 768
Boron Motor Silk 0 0
Schaeffer Micron Moly 110 5
CMW Racing Oil Concentrate 2292 1147
Exxon Av Break-in oil 1 4 20w50
(Check formulations regularly of oil you use... contact the manufacturer's tech department.)

Update on Mobil 1, and the "NEW" v. "Extended" Mobil 1 formulations.

Mobil 1 has just brought back a "NEW" formulation, which is their older formulation, with higher levels of ZDDP/anti-galling additives. It's the only formulation I use now, and it works great in my rebuilt 1400.

Here's one of my earlier postigns on the subject. It's important to note there are some substantial differences in the posted amounts of additives... and oil companies change this around from time to time.

I have been supplementing my oil changes with GM's EOS part #1052367 (engine oil supplement) to raise zinc and phosphorous levels slightly. The list price is arount $12/bottle, but if you buy 4-6, you may find it at GM dealerships for about $6 or so.

It would appear, using this additive package, you may stay with Castrol GTX, if you prefer.

Notwithstanding, using the "NEW" Mobil 1 15w50 is sufficient... BUT notice, the "EXTENDED" life version of Mobil 1 has lower levels of ZDDP additive packages.

Buyer beware... and informed.
 

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The zinc content in Rotella (and other diesel oils) has been reduced, and will continue to be reduced, to meet EPA limits on zinc in motor oils. Rotella is due for another reduction for next year, I was told by Shell.

Oil additives with ZDDP (the zinc-containing compound whose concentration is being reduced) include Marvel Mystery Oil, STP, and Rislone--although I think some formulations of these products do not contain ZDDP; check the label.

You can learn more about ZDDP by doing a web search under "ZDDP." There was also a long discussion on this subject in the Yahoo 750-101 group recently.

Jeffrey Frey
Here's a great source for the ZDDP package.

EOS part #1052367 (engine oil supplement) to raise zinc and phosphorous levels to higher levels. I bought it from a local GM dealer at prices lower than offered online. Lists about $12. I buy 4 bottles at a time and get it for about $6-7. This is a terrific product, and will not increase viscosity or "thin" your oil.
 

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I own 4 GMC motorhomes and our net group has been swatting this problem around for a few months. One of our vendors has "lost" 4 new rebuild 455 engines due to poor protection provided by the new oil formulations. This was documented by Jasper Engines - the performance side- not the stock rebuild side- as they ponied up to replace the engines on their dime. These failures were all cam and lifter related on the new engines due to wear. They determined that is was the very low ZDDP concentrations in the new formulations.

So, cutting to the chase the vendor and Jasper have found an off the shelf solution with a Valvoline dino oil product. It is the Valvoline VR1 racing oil. It has 1200 PPM zinc and 1300 PPM phosphorous. It meets all other requirements and has the new SM rating as well. Documented direct from Valvoline. They also have another one but is does not have any detergent (or very little) and is not recommended for street use. I know it comes in 50W and not sure if they have different weights also.

This is probably not the last word on this problem but it's what I know and I trust the man that did the search. He has more to lose than most as he puts in 15 to 20 engine s a year and has to guarantee them.

Here is the sight :
Daily Pose
It changes on a daily basis so it will be in the archive are in about a week.

Marcus
 

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1973 GTV, 1969 GTV, TR4 & 1969 Roadrunner (long gone), 1967 & 1969 Corvettes
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I own 4 GMC motorhomes and our net group has been swatting this problem around for a few months. One of our vendors has "lost" 4 new rebuild 455 engines due to poor protection provided by the new oil formulations. This was documented by Jasper Engines - the performance side- not the stock rebuild side- as they ponied up to replace the engines on their dime. These failures were all cam and lifter related on the new engines due to wear. They determined that is was the very low ZDDP concentrations in the new formulations.

So, cutting to the chase the vendor and Jasper have found an off the shelf solution with a Valvoline dino oil product. It is the Valvoline VR1 racing oil. It has 1200 PPM zinc and 1300 PPM phosphorous. It meets all other requirements and has the new SM rating as well. Documented direct from Valvoline. They also have another one but is does not have any detergent (or very little) and is not recommended for street use. I know it comes in 50W and not sure if they have different weights also.

This is probably not the last word on this problem but it's what I know and I trust the man that did the search. He has more to lose than most as he puts in 15 to 20 engine s a year and has to guarantee them.

Here is the sight :
Daily Pose
It changes on a daily basis so it will be in the archive are in about a week.

Marcus
What about Valvoline 4 stroke Motorcycle 20w-50. Probably a bit more detergents than the VR1 Racing oil and just a bit less zinc. (.120 vs .130)? But who knows - looks like the spec sheets aren't current.Fairly reasonable nowadays at Autozone for about 3.35/qt.

http://www.valvoline.com/products/4-Stroke Motorcycle Oil.pdf

http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1 Racing Motor Oil.pdf

IMO. it's a mistake to use the new formula GTX 20w-50 with the low zinc level
whatever it is cause they don't even show it on their spec sheet
http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/b...NG/local_assets/downloads/p,q/psd_gtx_usa.pdf
but IIRC from other forum postings, it's under .10
 
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