[UndecidedRacer]

Longtime reader, first time poster... but I just came into possession of my first GTV!

I am at the end of the road and no one seems to be able to help. I've been reading for days trying to solve the mystery of what its going to take to get this car registered in CA. First off, I have read the forums, talked to long time Alfa mechanics in San Carlos, even hired a specialty CA DMV registration firm and tried to buy my way out of this issue. Apparently the rules in CA have changed recently and the DMV can no longer do vehicle inspections where there is a VIN question. Moreover, I have now been referred to the California Highway Patrol (which is apparently impossible to get sign off). So, I turn to your collective wisdom.

I have located the VIN on the bulkhead of the engine bay, same VIN plate on the inside of windshield, and there is a totally destroyed stamped plate in the driver side door panel (stamped VIN is fine and shows a build date of 10/74, silkscreen labeling is gone). Importantly, in the engine bay is a Vehicle Emissions Control Label that indicates the car is a true 1974 build. Apparently, the car is "missing" a US Federal Emissions label that would both list its US compliance for emissions AND have the VIN all on the same label.

Does this sound correct? As it stands now, the car is insured but I cant complete the registration process and therefore have no plates for the car.

Pictures attached.

Thanks in advance!
Phil

 

[bellagt]

Exactly what is the DMV's VIN question? You have the VIN (3024604) which should show the same on the firewall bulkhead, driver's A pillar, the riveted nameplate on the driver's door jamb and your title/pink slip. The decal is just the engine and ignition timing for the car, located on the intake side of the engine compartment. They are not VIN specific. There was a California emissions decal located on the driver's side rear quarter window; this too is not VIN specific. The Registry verifies your VIN has a build date consistent with other '74 US spec GTVs.

PS: if you need a reproduction CA emissions decal, they are available...

 

[UndecidedRacer]

Thanks Ken - that was actually really helpful. At least it sounds like i should first take a shot at rolling into the DMV for a VIN inspection, maybe i will get lucky.

Specifically though, the label i believe is missing is the one on the rear window that you mentioned, that would have been the CA specific emissions label. The agency i hired said that without that label i am in for a vehicle inspection. This GTV had new glass installed in 2015 so i expect the labels weren't replaced. At the recommendation of the alfa service shop and their buddies next door at the body shop, they recommended I call these guys on the east coast who ultimately said they couldn't help me. Throughout the car, there is no question that the VIN matches the chassis, body, and engine in all the expected locations.

How were you so precisely able to determine the VIN is a US car? I haven't found a single VIN search out there that knows what a GTV is?? Is there more information out there? Can I, for example find out if this car was originally sold in one state over another? Possibly a way to determine if it was ever previously registered in a CA DMV database?

Thanks again for all the insight.

 

[bellagt]

Check out Patrick Hung's registry (Sticky at the top of the GT page)...

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gt-1963-1977/118518-105-115-gt-registry.html

Your VIN is not on the list, but you can see other VINs. While there are variations in the VIN sequence, your VIN falls nicely in place for a late '74 US build date.

As far as the CA emissions sticker, it's rare to see them on any US/CA car since they've been removed over the years.. no different than a new owner of any new car removing the various window stickers that are applied from the factory. If you need a repro sticker, I have one, and you can slap it on the rear quarter window if that's what it takes. I don't need it.. the original sticker (old, cracked and yellowed from age) is still on my car.

 

[101/105guy]

From my experience a few years ago, the DMV does not do VIN verifications.
Any CHP office can do it. i brought two Giulia Sedans to my local CHP for this and it was no problem. Well other than they were pre-1971 models and only had the VIN stamped on the firewall and nowhere else.
Both got verified for their paperwork and are now Ca. registered!

 

[Alfajay]

How were you so precisely able to determine the VIN is a US car? I haven't found a single VIN search out there that knows what a GTV is?? Is there more information out there? Can I, for example find out if this car was originally sold in one state over another? Possibly a way to determine if it was ever previously registered in a CA DMV database?

There is (or at least, used to be) a person at Fiat/Alfa who would provide basic build information on these cars. Similar to what the Porsche people call a "Certificate of Authenticity". For a fee, Fiat/Alfa will (or would) tell you the date your car was built, the exterior color, and where it was shipped by the factory. Does anyone reading this thread know that procedure?

If you can obtain that information, it would at least confirm that Alfa built your GTV for the US market. However, I think the factory can only tell you that the car was sent to Alfa's US distribution center in New Jersey; which state it went to from there isn't documented.

Insisting that a 41 year old car still have its original window sticker is absurd. Perhaps the DMV has severely toughened its rules, but I have to wonder if you aren't just dealing with a DMV office that discriminates against the sort of people who own vintage cars. I have found that each DMV office has its own attitude.

even hired a specialty CA DMV registration firm

What do those people say about your situation? It sounds like they took your money and did nothing. Might there be other DMV consultants out there who are more competent?

 

[bellagt]

https://www.dmv.com/ca/california/custom-vehicle-registration


HOW TO REGISTER AN ANTIQUE OR CUSTOM BUILT VEHICLE

You will have to make an appointment at your local DMV to register your antique or custom-built vehicle. When registering a custom-built or antique vehicle, you will need to bring the following materials to the renewal office:
1. Proof of vehicle verification completed by the California Highway Patrol (CHP). You must start your vehicle registration process with the DMV before you contact the CHP for vehicle verification. Trailers that are 6000 pounds or lighter can be verified directly by the DMV.
2. Documents indicating proof of ownership such as manufacturer's certificate of origin, invoices or bills of sale for major vehicle parts such as the engine, transmission, chassis, etc. For parts valued at $5000 or more, a motor vehicle bond will be necessary if proof of ownership cannot be obtained.
3. A completed Statement of Construction.
4. A completed Application for Title or Registration.
5. For commercial vehicle less than 10,000 pounds, a weight certificate should be presented.
6. An emissions inspection conducted by a Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) Referee Station unless the vehicle is model year 1975 or older. For an appointment at a BAR Referee Station, call (800) 622-7733.
7. Official certificates for brake and light adjustment are required. If there is no official inspection station within a reasonable distance, a Statement of Facts from a mechanic confirming the effective performance of the brakes and lights will be accepted. No certificates are required for trailers or off-highway vehicles that weigh less than 3000 pounds in gross vehicle weight

 

[papajam]

How were you so precisely able to determine the VIN is a US car?

Alfa published documents state that all USA market 2000 GT Veloces (model 11501) chassis numbers start with 302xxxx. For the 1974 model year, the first chassis number was 3023001.

All non-USA 2000 GTV chassis numbers start with, depending on the year, either 242xxxx, 243xxxx or 244xxxx for LHD models and 241xxxx for RHD versions.

 

[101/105guy]

Bad advice!

https://www.dmv.com/ca/california/custom-vehicle-registration


HOW TO REGISTER AN ANTIQUE OR CUSTOM BUILT VEHICLE

You will have to make an appointment at your local DMV to register your antique or custom-built vehicle. When registering a custom-built or antique vehicle, you will need to bring the following materials to the renewal office:
1. Proof of vehicle verification completed by the California Highway Patrol (CHP). You must start your vehicle registration process with the DMV before you contact the CHP for vehicle verification. Trailers that are 6000 pounds or lighter can be verified directly by the DMV.
2. Documents indicating proof of ownership such as manufacturer's certificate of origin, invoices or bills of sale for major vehicle parts such as the engine, transmission, chassis, etc. For parts valued at $5000 or more, a motor vehicle bond will be necessary if proof of ownership cannot be obtained.
3. A completed Statement of Construction.
4. A completed Application for Title or Registration.
5. For commercial vehicle less than 10,000 pounds, a weight certificate should be presented.
6. An emissions inspection conducted by a Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) Referee Station unless the vehicle is model year 1975 or older. For an appointment at a BAR Referee Station, call (800) 622-7733.
7. Official certificates for brake and light adjustment are required. If there is no official inspection station within a reasonable distance, a Statement of Facts from a mechanic confirming the effective performance of the brakes and lights will be accepted. No certificates are required for trailers or off-highway vehicles that weigh less than 3000 pounds in gross vehicle weight

You do NOT want to go there with the DMV !!

 

[ossodiseppia]

Importantly, in the engine bay is a Vehicle Emissions Control Label that indicates the car is a true 1974 build. Apparently, the car is "missing" a US Federal Emissions label that would both list its US compliance for emissions AND have the VIN all on the same label.

Phil,

The sticker in the engine bay actually has the information about conforming to US EPA and California emissions regulations. It's just so badly worn that it is hardly readable.

The door jamb VIN tag historically did not mention emissions. It mentions Federal safety standards as seen in the image, below.

 

[Alfajay]

Osso:

For some odd reason, the photos you are posting today aren't displaying (at least, not for me). I also noticed this in your thread "Recommended Lubricants Stickers". I can view photos you had uploaded in earlier postings, as well as in others' posts.

 

[rkirkpatrick]

Osso, just for the record I have the same issue. No pictures above or in other posts from you today.

 

[UndecidedRacer]

Today's Registration Attempt - Update

Here is the update... first off, you guys are great and really appreciate the support to get this thing registered. Today, i gave it the old college try with the "just show up at the DMV for a VIN Verification" which is actually CA DMV Form: Verification of Vehicle (won't let me link it). I was Soooooo close to having the DMV employee sign off after a lot of small talk and smiles until she said she needed to "double check" something. So, she came back and checked the box for "DO NOT PROCESS - REFER TO CHP." The reason, she stated that she was unable to locate the official "US Federal Label." Yes, I know i have one in the engine bay, in bad condition, but thats not the one. It also wasn't because of the badly worn VIN drivers door plate and certainly not that she couldn't find the VIN in the window and engine bay which are obviously there.

So... then i drove next door to the CHP and tried to talk up the officer. She said there is only one VIN officer in the Bay Area and it could take him several months to get to it. I asked if she could just confirm the VIN on the DMV filled out form and she said no... she did offer me some good news thought, she said... if there were any day to drive the car under my current Temporary Moving Permit, today was that day... we laughed and she took my name and number for the VIN officer to schedule an appointment.

Ken - that CA vehicle emissions label that was previously affixed to the rear drivers window is apparently the one i am missing. Can i PM you and we figure out how to get the reproduction or - laughing - the one off your GTV?

Brian - the label in the engine bay does not cover CA - its a 49 state label and CA requires a 50 state label. See here: (won't let me link it, have to search google for 50 state emissions DMV label)

Jay - unrelated answer but the pictures aren't appearing due to your browser preference as i had the same issue. I am on a Mac and the pictures only render on Safari (not chrome, nor firefox).

Jim - most importantly, you bring something very important to the discussion. If this comes down to the "he said, she said" over whether this was a US car, is there a database or a print publication that backs up your VIN series description? I'd like to be able to hand something to them.

To all - I also have my request into the Alfa folks, i heard back today with some additional questions from them so i hope to have that information tomorrow.

Long story short, I'd like to try and hit up another DMV and give the VIN Verification another shot... just need to ensure I have all of the labeling this time. I fear that the CHP will not just verify the VIN but run it through some sort of modern safety check which Im sure the car will not meet. Yikes!

Thanks again for all of the help in getting this figured out.

 

[patpend2000]

Vehicle Verifier-DMV Vin Verifier-SF Bay Area, Sacramento

Save yourself some headache, I paid these guys around $100 to verify a vin from an out of state vehicle, took the form to the DMV and was all said and done

 

[UndecidedRacer]

Hey PatPend - we live in the same city...! Given your handle, i think we might be in the same profession too! Short answer i got from the service i hired (as you suggested) is that all 3rd party VIN verifiers have been unauthorized, as of about two months ago. As fate would have it, whatever regulation went into effect also now further restricts the DMV from conducting a Verification of Vehicle. Thats when they started using the "DO NOT PROCESS - REFER TO DMV" box by default.

PM me if you want to hook up sometime.

 

[Alfajay]

the label in the engine bay does not cover CA - its a 49 state label and CA requires a 50 state label.

Not that I am suggesting that you have this debate with the clerk at the DMV, but did the "49 state vs. California" distinction even exist in 1974? My guess would be "no".

Jay - unrelated answer but the pictures aren't appearing due to your browser preference as i had the same issue. I am on a Mac and the pictures only render on Safari (not chrome, nor firefox).

I am using Chrome.

Jim - most importantly, you bring something very important to the discussion. If this comes down to the "he said, she said" over whether this was a US car, is there a database or a print publication that backs up your VIN series description? I'd like to be able to hand something to them.

I should let Jim answer this, but I suspect he is looking at the Fusi book. Even the more accessible "Alfa Romeo Buyers Guide" by Joe Benson references the difference in VIN between US and ROW 115 series cars. My ancient edition of the "Buyers Guide" supports what Jim said: the US version GTV's had VINs of the form: 11501.3xxxx

 

[ossodiseppia]

Osso:

For some odd reason, the photos you are posting today aren't displaying (at least, not for me). I also noticed this in your thread "Recommended Lubricants Stickers". I can view photos you had uploaded in earlier postings, as well as in others' posts.

Osso, just for the record I have the same issue. No pictures above or in other posts from you today.

Thank you. I'll fix both posts...or repost so it works.

 

[bellagt]

Ken - that CA vehicle emissions label that was previously affixed to the rear drivers window is apparently the one i am missing. Can i PM you and we figure out how to get the reproduction or - laughing - the one off your GTV

Thanks again for all of the help in getting this figured out.

I actually have one that you are welcome to. However, it is for a 1973 car, and the decal clearly specifies the model year. It has been sliced in two pieces... And the decal is slightly larger and has different emission measurement numbers than the decal on my car (not that the DMV would even no the difference).

Just "age" the decal, tear out the last digit of the model year, slap it in to the rear quarter window crooked and your good to go. Mine is actually like that. I can pop it in the mail or if you're in the East Bay, we can meeting up and I can bring it with me.

 

[ossodiseppia]

I actually have one that you are welcome to. However, it is for a 1973 car, and the decal clearly specifies the model year. It has been sliced in two pieces... And the decal is slightly larger and has different emission measurement numbers than the decal on my car (not that the DMV would even no the difference).

Just "age" the decal, tear out the last digit of the model year, slap it in to the rear quarter window crooked and your good to go. Mine is actually like that. I can pop it in the mail or if you're in the East Bay, we can meeting up and I can bring it with me.

Got a picture?

 

[bellagt]

Here it is...