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Discussion Starter #1
I know this will likely come off sounding a bit insane, but I've tried researching the idea and can't seem to get any concrete detailed information.

I have a 1967 Alfa Romeo GT Veloce shell that I'm restoring, as in it needs everything restored and/or replaced. Instead of rebuilding the tired powertrain that's currently fitted, I was wondering: could I purchase a cheap '80s Spider and pull the engine, transmission, rear end, driveshaft, suspension assembly, and then transfer it over to the Stepnose shell?

I know they're all 105 series based but I don't know the details on what will and will not transfer. Considering how cheap running Spiders are and how expensive early Bertone coupes are becoming, it seems like a relatively inexpensive method to get my GT Veloce up and running so I can finally enjoy it.

If anyone has done something similar, I'd love to hear about what works and what doesn't. If this information is already posted somewhere else, a link would be greatly appreciated. Thank you all.
 

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Swapping a 2L into a 105 chassis Alfa isn't super hard but it's not as trivial as just swapping everything over from a Spider into a GTV. I documented what I learned doing the swap for my '67 Super in the following thread:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/engine-conversions/99616-2l-nord-engine-into-105-alfa-conversion-recipe.html

Rear end will swap over fine, though I think there are differences between the trailing arms. You'll also get LSD and a 4.10 ratio instead of the 4.56 in the original GTV rear axle. Nice for highway cruising, and a 2L has plenty of torque to handle the gearing. Driveshafts are different lengths between coupe and sedan for sure, and I think for the GTV as well.

The '80s engines use Bosch fuel injection and need either a bit of work to swap over Webers (the head needs a bit of machining to fit a carb manifold) or a LOT of work to get a fuel injection system set up and running.

But here's the rub - what makes you think a running '80s Spider will be in good enough shape that you'll want to use that drivetrain in a freshly restored car? I'd focus on each piece one by one. Maybe start with finding a fresh '72-'81 Spider engine as they're easier to convert to Webers, then find a '80s rear axle and have it rebuilt, then rebuild your driveshaft or replace with a 2L GTV driveshaft... you get the idea.
 

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Richard Jemison
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driveline /suspension interchanges

This was just listed this afternoon.
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa-romeo-parts-sale-wanted/631697-69-pedal-box.html

The 1969 floor petal assembly has additional casting for a hydraulic clutch MC that allows you to use the hydraulic clutch release, bearing,clutch, starter & flywheel from the Spider.

This greatly simplifies using the driveline!

I suspect the complete driveshaft should fit into the early car. Things like driveshafts are easy for a shop to lengthen or shorten.

If I was doing your project I`d be quick to buy it!
 

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If you do buy that pedal box - and I agree with Richard that you should - I'd also send a PM to Papajam here on the BB. Years ago I know he was rebuilding the rare and sought after 1969 only brake master cylinders, which comes with the pedal box Fred is selling. Of course if you go that route it also means you're converting to a dual circuit brake system, which is a bit more work but highly recommended.
 

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what makes you think a running '80s Spider will be in good enough shape that you'll want to use that drivetrain in a freshly restored car? I'd focus on each piece one by one.
jarrington raises a great point - that 80's spider may be just as worn-out as your stepnose. And not all of the parts will just bolt-in.

- The front suspension does bolt-in, and will give you the advantage of ATE brake calipers.

- A later differential will give you the benefit of ATE brakes, LSD, and a 4.10 gear ratio (a benefit if you will have a 2L and do mostly freeway driving).

- As others have written, swapping in an EFI engine won't be easy - better to start with a Spica engine if you really want a 2L. Any 2L into a stepnose requires adapting the clutch mechanism.

- Spider driveshafts are too short for GT's.

- I have a Burman steering box + column from a '76 spider in my GT. It bolted right in and the column length was correct. Dunno if this is true for later spider columns.

But as jarrington suggests, ALL of these components will need rebuilding and are no easier/cheaper to rebuild than your stepnose parts.
 

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The front suspension does bolt-in, and will give you the advantage of ATE brake calipers.
I think that the original uprights will accept aluminum Brembo calipers from a Milano which are better than the iron Ate calipers. Richard knows the details.
 

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I think I'd consider converting to hanging pedals (Jay, didn't you do this?). It is sort of major surgery and I'm sure some would frown at seeing it on a step but they are a lot easier to deal with and I think a safer system. There are a lot fewer pipes which means a lot fewer potential leaks and the vacuum booster is actually reliable. Speaking of boosters, if you do go with the dual master I would 86 the dual boosters. You don't really need them, they are expensive and as implied they aren't the most reliable.

Plus, if you go with the pedal box you'll need to cut a hole in the frame rail which will need reinforcing.
 

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I would forgo cutting the firewall for the latter pedal box assy, much more difficult to convert back later. Its not a big deal cutting through the frame rail, but as gprocket mentions you do need to weld in a large diameter tube for strength. 69 pedal boxes come up for sale every once in a while.
 

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I think I'd consider converting to hanging pedals (Jay, didn't you do this?). It is sort of major surgery and I'm sure some would frown at seeing it on a step but they are a lot easier to deal with and I think a safer system.
Oh, the shame. Yes, I'll confess to having done this to my Duetto back in the 1980's when these cars were cheap and I was young/foolish. I definitely wouldn't do it again today; too severe a modification to what is now a valuable car.

But yes, the resulting set-up is cleaner, simpler, and probably safer. The mechanical boosters used with hanging pedals are cheaper and more reliable than the hydraulic ones used with standing pedals.

Only downside of my hanging pedal Duetto is that the pedals ended up more rearward than on a squaretail, no doubt due to the shape of the firewall. So I have to drive in an even more "short legs - long arms" position.

I keep saying that the next time I restore that car, I'll convert it back to standing pedals. Don't know if I ever will, but that's the plan.
 

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Do you really need a brake booster if this is to be a track car?
 

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Do you really need a brake booster if this is to be a track car?
No, I don't suppose that a track car does need a brake booster. But I didn't see where Doraiba was planning on building a track car; he just says "1967 Alfa Romeo GT Veloce shell that I'm restoring".

Anyhow, Doraiba seems to have lost interest in this thread. I suspect we're not telling him what he wants to hear.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
No, I don't suppose that a track car does need a brake booster. But I didn't see where Doraiba was planning on building a track car; he just says "1967 Alfa Romeo GT Veloce shell that I'm restoring".

Anyhow, Doraiba seems to have lost interest in this thread. I suspect we're not telling him what he wants to hear.
I've been busy the last couple days. I promise I didn't lose interest, I value the knowledge base here greatly!

Thank you all for commenting. A lot of good points and info to mull over. I've got a ways to go before I get to the reassembly stage, but the "an '80s Spider is likely as worn out as your Stepnose parts" is what I was suspecting from the crowd, and for good reason.

How hard would it be to put a '90s Spider powertrain into a Stepnose?

I'm torn: I want a reliable setup I can thrash on, but I don't want to do something too blasphemous.
 

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If you go with any 105 suspension after 1969 the lower A arm will not bolt up. You will have to exchange the piece that bolts onto the stepnose with the piece that bolts on to the later 105's. Alfa went to 4 bolts holding the A arm as opposed to the 2 bolts on the 1600's.

Most 90's are just as likely to be as worn as any of the others.
 

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If you go with any 105 suspension after 1969 the lower A arm will not bolt up. You will have to exchange the piece that bolts onto the stepnose with the piece that bolts on to the later 105's. Alfa went to 4 bolts holding the A arm as opposed to the 2 bolts on the 1600's.

Most 90's are just as likely to be as worn as any of the others.
I have a '67 GTjr with a four bolt cross member. As far as I can tell it's factory installed.

I agree with Jim: it's at least a 24 year old car and if it's a parts car it's probably not seen easy days.

If you are looking for reliability, these motors aren't that hard to rebuild...
 

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you don't say what year spider you are looking to swap over? I have a 1969 spider (boat tail) and a 1970 step nose and running gear wise they are identical and you could do a straight swap, few small variances such as the length of the propshaft, but otherwise pretty much identical. The issue is not spider to stepnose, but new to old.
 

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You have a choice for the GT Veloce 1600 gearboxes which you can rebuild using NOS parts which are time consuming to find and are very expensive, e.g. the bearings, or rebuild using reproduction parts which can vary in price, again the high end are expensive, but are readily available. The 1600 GT Veloce used Dunlop brakes for the rear and mainly Dunlop brakes for the front. Brake caliper rebuilds kits for the fronts are available (even an alloy Dunlop style caliper conversion), some parts for the back are available, but tend to be more expensive. The front and rear Dunlop rear discs tend to be more expensive than the ATE discs.
For the 4.56 ratio diff (Dunlop version is just one) The NOS bearings are harder to find and more expensive compared to ATE LSD 2L version of the diff.
By keeping all the original drive train on the 1600 GT Veloce you will be using the 8mm bolts, that connect the original Dunlop diff to the original tail shaft, (which has the original tail shaft’s centre bearing set up). The original tail shaft then connects to the original gearbox's flange with 8mm bolts.
The ATE cars use 9mm bolts to connect the diff to the drive shaft and the drive shaft to the gearbox, so mixing items up can be a trap.

So since it takes time to find allot of the NOS parts for the 1600 GT Veloce, but not some the expensive reproduction parts, which are readily available, so the time factor is really not an issue but costs may be (if using reproduction parts).

Let’s assume labour costs will be the same, so this leaves the parts cost.
Here are some numbers you can check against your estimates
Parts cost for engine 1.6 pistons, liners gaskets etc $1500
Parts cost gearbox 1.6, (bearings only) $ 800
Parts cost a 1.6 diff,4 bearings more expensive $ 800
Parts cost to fix Dunlop brakes $ 800
Total parts cost to stay original 1600 GT Veloce $3900

Parts cost to buy Spider LSD $ 800
Parts cost to buy Spider 2L Engine $1500
Parts cost to buy Spider Gearbox $ 500
Parts cost to buy 2L front uprights and calipers $ 500
Parts cost to fix Spider LSD $ 200
Parts cost to fix Spider 2L Engine $1500
Parts cost to fix Spider Gearbox $ 500
Parts cost to fix 2L front uprights and brakes $ 400
Total parts cost 2L Spider conversion $5900
Difference $2000
Obviously cost is not an issue either.
So it will be just as fast and cheaper to rebuild GT Veloce with high-end reproduction parts for Dunlop brakes and 1600 engine and gearbox.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
You have a choice for the GT Veloce 1600 gearboxes which you can rebuild using NOS parts which are time consuming to find and are very expensive, e.g. the bearings, or rebuild using reproduction parts which can vary in price, again the high end are expensive, but are readily available. The 1600 GT Veloce used Dunlop brakes for the rear and mainly Dunlop brakes for the front. Brake caliper rebuilds kits for the fronts are available (even an alloy Dunlop style caliper conversion), some parts for the back are available, but tend to be more expensive. The front and rear Dunlop rear discs tend to be more expensive than the ATE discs.
For the 4.56 ratio diff (Dunlop version is just one) The NOS bearings are harder to find and more expensive compared to ATE LSD 2L version of the diff.
By keeping all the original drive train on the 1600 GT Veloce you will be using the 8mm bolts, that connect the original Dunlop diff to the original tail shaft, (which has the original tail shaft’s centre bearing set up). The original tail shaft then connects to the original gearbox's flange with 8mm bolts.
The ATE cars use 9mm bolts to connect the diff to the drive shaft and the drive shaft to the gearbox, so mixing items up can be a trap.

So since it takes time to find allot of the NOS parts for the 1600 GT Veloce, but not some the expensive reproduction parts, which are readily available, so the time factor is really not an issue but costs may be (if using reproduction parts).

Let’s assume labour costs will be the same, so this leaves the parts cost.
Here are some numbers you can check against your estimates
Parts cost for engine 1.6 pistons, liners gaskets etc $1500
Parts cost gearbox 1.6, (bearings only) $ 800
Parts cost a 1.6 diff,4 bearings more expensive $ 800
Parts cost to fix Dunlop brakes $ 800
Total parts cost to stay original 1600 GT Veloce $3900

Parts cost to buy Spider LSD $ 800
Parts cost to buy Spider 2L Engine $1500
Parts cost to buy Spider Gearbox $ 500
Parts cost to buy 2L front uprights and calipers $ 500
Parts cost to fix Spider LSD $ 200
Parts cost to fix Spider 2L Engine $1500
Parts cost to fix Spider Gearbox $ 500
Parts cost to fix 2L front uprights and brakes $ 400
Total parts cost 2L Spider conversion $5900
Difference $2000
Obviously cost is not an issue either.
So it will be just as fast and cheaper to rebuild GT Veloce with high-end reproduction parts for Dunlop brakes and 1600 engine and gearbox.
While I understand these are ballpark figures, I really appreciate this simple but effective breakdown. Thank you for taking the time to put this into words. It makes it pretty obvious that my OP just doesn't make sense.

Though many might find this blasphemous, I have no intention in restoring the car to factory specs despite the values rising. Not that building a hot rod really changes the idea that using a Spider to build a GTV shell makes anymore sense. Mentioning more as an FYI so everyone reading/inputting understands my intentions.

Looks like I'll stick with what's already in the GTV and just rebuild everything over time and upgrade where needed/desired.

I plan on doing a GTA style build with a slightly hopped up 2.0-liter, LSD, halfcage if not a full cage, harnesses, and Alfaholics fast road suspension kit. Thank you all for comments and information. The logic, kind heartedness, and information among this forum's members never disappoints. Thank you all!
 
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