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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
First part if this post:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/showthread.php?t=42740&highlight=brake+upgrade
So the braking has been upgraded to the 24V set up as mentioned in an earlier post.
So far so good. All is working perfectly and the braking is improved drastically.

I wanted to do this for all the 12V guys out there who have the fade problem or just weak braking in General.

Just for reference:
12V front Brake Calipers: 54mm Piston And smaller Caliper size
24V Front Brake Caliper: 57mm Piston and larger Caliper due to size.
You need 24V carriers/Disc's as well to make this work properly.
You can used 12V brake booster and MC with this set up.
You can also replace with 24V brake booster and 12V MC or 24V booster and 24V Brake Master.
Several options.

Today I finally installed the 24V Booster and Brake MC.

The biggest reason for better braking on the 24V is due to a few upgraded items:

1. Thicker rotors 26mm over 22mm (this is 24V min. thickness) This is a big help. The thicker rotors handle the heat much much better.
2. Larger Caliper Piston
3. Much Larger Brake Booster (12V body:80mm/ 24V Body: 150mm)
4. More powerful MC

Brake Booster comparison:

Brake Master:


I have to say that this will be one of the top upgrades I have done to this vehicle. Most intense too.
Much more inexpensive than TAROX kits: LOL!

Just thought it might be a project for people to do for a really good upgrade for the braking system.

So there ya go. I hope to make up some used and new kits in the future.

Another note. I am using performance pads and steel braided brake lines. Those are the only after market upgrades to the system besides the ATE fluid. Testing will be done later next week when my wheels return from being refinished and trued!


Thanks
Jason
 

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Might there be some pictures of the installations of these parts, to see how they look and fit in the same locations?
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Might there be some pictures of the installations of these parts, to see how they look and fit in the same locations?
Yup. I have them and will post soon.
You don't believe me Del. :) hehe

I got this idea from a guy in Malaysia Actually. Pretty much did the same project as I have done except he did not do the caliper/rotors etc... Just Booster with 12V MC.

Forgot to mention either some bending of the hard lines or replacement with the 24v is needed for the lines to line up with 24V MC. Otherwise 12V works well too and this is according to this guy.
Jason
 

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Oh no, I believe you. I'm interested in these modifications myself, and just want to see how complicated the installations are. If the price is not too bad, I'd go for it, for the S.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Oh no, I believe you. I'm interested in these modifications myself, and just want to see how complicated the installations are. If the price is not too bad, I'd go for it, for the S.
No I know. I was joking around.

I would say on a scale of 1-10 10 being the most difficult. This is a 7-8.

The most difficult parts is the removal and install of the boosters.
Bloody mess to get it out and the larger one in, I would say very time consuming.
The easiest route if you did do the booster would be to re-use the 12V MC as then there is no rerouting of the hard lines.

All in all I expect the final results to be stellar. Let me make clear that my post above stating all is good was using the old Brake booster and MC. I am in the middle of the 24V replacement, so pictures not ready yet and any problems that have come up are not there yet either.

But the replacement of the calipers/carriers and rotors are a big improvement by themselves.


Jason
 

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Do the larger calipers require larger wheels, or will it all fit in the 12V 15" OEM wheels?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Do the larger calipers require larger wheels, or will it all fit in the 12V 15" OEM wheels?
No. All the same. Will fit under 15" wheel without an issue, mainly longer and wider has a better grip on the pad as well. Instead of ending halfway down the pad it grips the pad all the way to the bottom.
Jason
 

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I haven't started working on my red 164S yet, but the engine is out of it. Maybe I should be thinking of the 24V MC and booster before the engine goes back in:)
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I haven't started working on my red 164S yet, but the engine is out of it. Maybe I should be thinking of the 24V MC and booster before the engine goes back in:)
Yup, easiest and bet time to do it.
I only have a used Booster here as I sold the MC but like I said you can use the 12V without any issues.
If you want it let me know. Fairly easy with no motor in the way.
Jason
 

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Wow, I must do this at some point to my car, the stock brakes feel a bit pathetic. I knew the 24V cars had better brakes just from driving one, they definately stop you better!
 

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Great information Jason! :)

This is precisely the sort of modification that I would like to do to my 164 - which I acquired for a bargain price - because I love the car. It has been well-looked-after all its life, but when the pads/discs need replacement, I shall certainly cost it out. It would be nice to order all the items from you, but I imagine that the weight would make this impractical. :(

Cheers,
-Alex
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Great information Jason! :)

This is precisely the sort of modification that I would like to do to my 164 - which I acquired for a bargain price - because I love the car. It has been well-looked-after all its life, but when the pads/discs need replacement, I shall certainly cost it out. It would be nice to order all the items from you, but I imagine that the weight would make this impractical. :(

Cheers,
-Alex
Alex,

Yes. I think this is a bargain brake upgrade. If for example you could find a used booster, that is one item that would enhance the 12V braking system all by itself. If you have ABS the MC will work as well. Non-ABS you need to fit an extension on to the hard lines to reach up around the top of the MC to use the 24V or like I mentioned just use the 12V.

Not a super hard job but a lot of stuff need to move out of the way to remove the Booster and since the new one is larger I suggest moving as much as possible. I had to remove coolant tank, of course all hoses, brake fluid tank and all hoses needed to be removed including brackets and coolant tank brackets. Clutch Slave moved out of the way and throttle body moved out of the way. Then with some work I could get it in.
Inside the car is simple, 4 bolts, cotter pin and remove.

I will have some info in more detail in the future after this test dummy drives it for awhile. I do not think there will be any issues as there where none with the 24V calipers, rotors etc..

As far as shipping,yes to NZ...Ouch. I could ship it POST the long way for fairly inexpensive but it may take 5 weeks and maybe $40-50 depending on what you wanted.


Ciao!
Jason
 

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Hi,
am amazed that the 24v brakes seem so much better than the 12v. My 12v 164 experience in the late 80's/early 90's was that it had fantastic brakes. As a passenger my friend braked it so hard, late and deep towards a junction, that my feet began to lift in the footwell due to the G involved. Later, as a driver, doing hard charging on a dual carriageway in quite heavy traffic at up to 135mph, between heavy prods on the brakes, the 12v brakes again seemed great. Even more so, when I returned to my girlfriend's Golf and almost crashed at 30mph because, by comparison, it felt like it had no brakes.

I guess everything is relative. Now I have my own 164, a 24v, and have managed to cook the brakes, by storming between a series of roundabouts. They are very good though. I roasted them in Germany in about 10 seconds, but that was because of hammering them from 140mph to about 50mph in less than 200 yards to take an exit. Didn't actually commit to it until was sure speed would be down enough but it was and we did. They weren't cooked afterwards but very warm to put it mildly.

Maybe I am just spoilt by a 24v being the first 164 I have owned? Both the 12v and 24v are great cars though, with great brakes, not to mention the engines :)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Hi,
am amazed that the 24v brakes seem so much better than the 12v. My 12v 164 experience in the late 80's/early 90's was that it had fantastic brakes. As a passenger my friend braked it so hard, late and deep towards a junction, that my feet began to lift in the footwell due to the G involved. Later, as a driver, doing hard charging on a dual carriageway in quite heavy traffic at up to 135mph, between heavy prods on the brakes, the 12v brakes again seemed great. Even more so, when I returned to my girlfriend's Golf and almost crashed at 30mph because, by comparison, it felt like it had no brakes.

I guess everything is relative. Now I have my own 164, a 24v, and have managed to cook the brakes, by storming between a series of roundabouts. They are very good though. I roasted them in Germany in about 10 seconds, but that was because of hammering them from 140mph to about 50mph in less than 200 yards to take an exit. Didn't actually commit to it until was sure speed would be down enough but it was and we did. They weren't cooked afterwards but very warm to put it mildly.

Maybe I am just spoilt by a 24v being the first 164 I have owned? Both the 12v and 24v are great cars though, with great brakes, not to mention the engines :)
Maybe age is a factor.

I would say the 164 12v s not bad at all either but could be better or as good as the 24V.

Key to good breaking on these cars is:
All components in proper condition, calipers not sticking, new seals, new brake lines, good fluid (changed every 2 years regardless), properly working MC and Booster and proper break in of new or used rotors and pads.


#1 reason maintenance (not component) wise why these cars have fade under normal and extreme braking is the rotor and pads not properly seated. Not breaking in procedure for club or race pads but street pads.

I have under technical page on my site how to properly do this.

If any brake pad is used below its adherent operating temperature, it will create friction through primarily abrasive mechanisms, slowly but surely removing the transfer layer on the rotor.
For this reason, most street/performance pads like to be driven just a little bit aggressively every now and again to maintain a proper transfer layer of pad material on the rotor face.

If the brakes are used passively for an extended period of time, the transfer layer can be completely removed, effectively un-bedding the brakes. The brake system will still perform well under normal driving conditions, but before heading to the autocross or your favorite canyon back road you will want to perform a bed-in procedure. Failing to do so will only increase the risk of TV generation.

Proper Brake pad selection is KEY.
A Mild pad to street Performance is the only pad to be used. Using race pads is not wise.
Some pads that I do not recommend are EBC (due to them being very very lo quality), Ferodo DS-2500 (have had people ask me for these), Ferodo DS-3000.

Another issue is that not enough people turn their rotors. Usually every pad change or every other pad change they should be turned.
One of the reasons why there is a minimum thickness. Yes pads over time can take it down but it is also for turning. Turning is not there to really remove a warped rotor problem but to remove gouging and burn marks and OLD PAD material. Will never work at 100% if not turned. Some may burn off with new pads under aggressive use or pad seating but not enough.

Does not seem cost effective well consider it may cost $20 to turn both rotors, new rotors (fronts since they are the most used) cost anywhere from $95-$150 each. Also always replace in pairs. Always, from rotors to pads to struts to bushings. (some may not agree but it is an old rule of thumb I like to abide by)

If this is done and broken in properly with new pads, maximum braking can be achieved!
I would say I rarely see rotors turned at ALL.

I also hypothesis that this is one main reason 164's have bad breaking or should I say 12V's do, at least it adds to the already medicor braking.

Proper maintenance is so key with braking.

Don't get me wrong I have no issues with my 12V braking, I wanted to do this as an experiment and IMO it is a fine upgrade and I would say 100% safe as well. The new Booster will give at least 2-3 times more power to the braking system, with the larger pistons and thicker rotors offer obviously the same braking power as the 24V we all know has great braking.


Ok I have talked enough and may have went on a tangent there. Hope that makes sense?? If not let me know?
:)
 

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Discussion Starter #18

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Here is the 24V Booster and 24V MC installed.
Note: This is NON-ABS, with ABS 2 ports are capped off on right side, Your left.

Just some minor bending of the hard lines to fit the lines in the MC is all I need to do.

Everything else fits right in.

Also Note, using the 12V will stick out about 1/2" more that this unit.







Road test will be next week after I get my wheels back from refinish!
I do not suspect any issues, even using 12V rotors/calipers. Booster alone should give really good results and I know it does as A customer has done it.

Ciao!
Jason
I do not take responsibility for any injury or damage that may occur if this upgrade is done.
 

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brake pad choices

Just curious as to why you do not recommend Ferodo DS2500? I know that DS3000 is a race only pad but DS2500 is a high performance pad that should be okay for street use. I ran Ferodo DS2000 before and DS2500 now. I noticed that the DS2000 seem to be better even when they are cool. The DS2500 takes a bit longer to stop when they are cool but really grab when after one or two hard stops and they get heated up. The brake dust problem is about the same for both - quite abundant. How about Porterfield R4 pads? A lot of people on other car forums seem to swear by them?
 
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