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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I've moved Brian Shorey's response to Noah from the BB New Subscription Thread to this one. Since Brian's post I have received several e-mails regarding the topic of AROC, the bb, and the support or inter-dependence of the two or lack there of as it pertains to the Alfa community as a whole, as well as several other issues, including but not limited to, the publishing of the Owner, the expense, The Owner content and format, the price of the dues and perceived value etc.

I consider these personal and private communications that will not be forwarded, so the best that I can do, if asked about how others feel about a defined incident, product, or proposal is pass the thoughts along in a general and non-descript way without disclosing the author or source.

While it's nice that there are those of you who are willing to share your thoughts with me, I am powerless to influence anything, affect change, and I have no vote in what the board ultimately does or decides nor am I privy to what is on their discussion agenda.

If there are members out there who find board members or the Board in general unapproachable, which there seem to be, don't think they'll pay attention, don't want to be involved in the politics, etc. and do not want to send an individual PM or e-mail, or post to the open forum as Brian has suggested below, and wish to remain anonymous; I will forward member concerns to an individual board member, specified board members, or the Board in general, anonymously, by removing the sender information and any reference location to chapter etc. that could identify you if that will help to open what appears to be a lack of communication for whatever reason.

Personally for me, I would be put off by the use of the words "constructive criticism," which to me says don't complain or criticize if you don't have a solution to offer, but yet they appear to desire input. If being challenged over a solution is a concern, by all means find a way to make your voice heard anonymously, however, you choose to do it.

I'm hopeful that just this post may open the road to communication on this forum between members and the Board of Directors over AROC issues and concerns.

silverspider said:
This AROC stuff should be PM fodder, and not for this thread.
bshorey said:
bshorey's Avatar

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As a concerned AROC BoD member, I'd like to make a couple of suggestions:

1) If you have concerns with AROC, please raise them! Start a thread in the AROC forum, Simon has been very gracious in setting it up for us, and we're hoping to make some use of it. My only request is to please try to keep the criticism constructive, I personally don't want to see AROC bashing threads.

2) If you don't feel comfortable discussing things in a public forum, then feel free to PM myself, or any of the other BoD members. We really are trying to make the club a better place, and it would help is if we knew what peoples concerns were.

3) If you're not comfortable with either of the above, then find a way to send your input anonymously. We still want to hear it.

Thanks all,

bs
 

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<snip>
Personally for me, I would be put off by the use of the words "constructive criticism," which to me says don't complain or criticize if you don't have a solution to offer, but yet they appear to desire input. If being challenged over a solution is a concern, by all means find a way to make your voice heard anonymously, however, you choose to do it.
<snip>

Well, if you think *destructive* criticism, or just a pi$$ing match in general, is the right way to resolve problems, then by all means, who am I to put a stop to that?

Personally, I'm not interested in pi$$ing matches, I'm interested in knowing what's broken and how best to improve things.

bs
 

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Discussion Starter #3
<snip>

<snip>

Well, if you think *destructive* criticism, or just a pi$$ing match in general, is the right way to resolve problems, then by all means, who am I to put a stop to that?

Personally, I'm not interested in pi$$ing matches, I'm interested in knowing what's broken and how best to improve things.

bs
There's a difference between "destructive critcism," "a p*ss*ng match," and having the problem identified and solved for you so that all you have to do is implement the solution; it appears that's what you're requesting.

So much for open communication.
 

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Pat Braden was treated like a lepper when he was on the board of directors shortly before he passed away, so I fully understand Cheryl's "concerns"!

I see no reason why someone HAS to be a member of the national club to be a member of a local chapter.
 

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Pat Braden was treated like a lepper when he was on the board of directors shortly before he passed away, so I fully understand Cheryl's "concerns"!
I can't comment on that, I wasn't on the BoD back then, nor were most of the current members, afaik. So I can't comment on politics and bullsh*t that may have occurred years ago, all I can do is work with the situation as it exists today, and the people that are in place today. I can tell you that the current BoD are all sincerely interested in doing the best for AROC and it's members.

I see no reason why someone HAS to be a member of the national club to be a member of a local chapter.
Well, one reason is that the chapters get certain benefits from the national club, for example blanket insurance coverage for most events, group policy rates for others (autocross, time trials, etc). So, if you're going to be a member of a group that's getting some subsidies from the mother ship, I think it only makes sense that you'd also contribute a little bit to the mother ship. And as a group, we can negotiate much better rates as a collective than we can negotiate as individual chapters.

bs
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Board Members Request / Membership

Pat Braden was treated like a lepper when he was on the board of directors shortly before he passed away, so I fully understand Cheryl's "concerns"!

I see no reason why someone HAS to be a member of the national club to be a member of a local chapter.
Stu,

If your concern was in the reverse or having to pay additional dues to a chapter, Detroit would be a solution since there is no add-on chapter fee, however, it might not be convenient to "Somewhere over the Rainbow's" location and would not solve the $60 dues problem to AROC per year.
 

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Why it's important to have National as well as local membership

I appreciate and second Brian's comments. All organizations that survive 50 years are bound to have proud moments in their past, and ones that in hindsight might have gone better. When I first ran for the National Board in 2005, I heard about both and prepared for the worst. What I found to my delight is just what Brian noted--a collegial group of volunteers sincerely dedicated to serving our membership.

Every Board member's name and contact information are on the website and in the Owner. Lots of folks have contacted me to discuss issues or share concerns and much of the time we end up in full agreement, while other times we might respectfully disagree, but the discussions are excellent and when it's desired I bring member concerns to the other Board members' attention. The members nominated and elected us, and we owe it to them to listen!

The question of why one must belong to National to be a local chapter member is one I have heard a number of times. I come from a background in association management and find it a reasonable question. The answer, not only for AROC but for most car clubs I know of (including Porsche, Mercedes, etc.) is strength in numbers. A National club can only put on Conventions, publish magazines, and get good insurance rates because of a large membership base. That base also allows the National to support chapters, which on their own would face prohibitive costs. In effect, the costs of running a good local chapter without national support would mean that the local could not charge $5 for membership or $10 for membership--they might require the full $60 just for local events, insurance, and overhead.

Nobody HAS to belong to AROC. The Club has the challenge to make it worth $60 for members to renew each year or we will lose them. We're always open to suggestions for how we can make AROC a better value.

One very encouraging reflection is the upgraded membership categories. Rather than even discussing raising base dues, we added family, "Verde," and "Platinum Business" membership categories that have been surprisingly popular.

From my own experience, I have to say the more actively involved one is in AROC, the better the value it becomes. Anytime I can help make it a better value for members, or share reasons for joining with those who don't currently belong, please call me at 202/434-2227 or shoot me an e-mail at [email protected].

Recently a U.S. Presidential candidate shared some hurt at being seen as "unlikeable." Board members are human and I'm sure also want to be liked--I know I do. But for anyone out there that does not like the current Board or find us approachable, remember you have the opportunity to nominate someone new that you think can do a good job. The deadline for applications in 2008 happens to be tomorrow, January 15. Any member in good standing can run. If you know someone who can help make AROC a better car club, we all win.

Pax et Alfadom,
Brewster
 

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I have belonged to AROC for 22 years, have attended several national conventions, and my pocket calculator informs me that my AROC dues amount to 16.4 cents a day. What a bargain! No complaints!
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
While I agree in principle with Brian and Brewster and their overall posts, I cannot agree on specifics and some of the word selections or generalities used. For clarifications sake, and in particular for Stu, I am doing my best to move forward from a very painful and hurtful period of my association with AROC, but still recognizing that the past must be recognized for what it was so that the mistakes are not repeated or recreated. It cannot be buried or simply dismissed, it is history, for better or for worse.

FTR, there were a limited number of specific Alfisti that caused the issue that Stu addressed and propagandized with information that was simply not true; one of them is still connected to the board, but at arm's length. I am not going to rehash the past except to say that Pat and several others resigned from the board because while they "knew" they were right and the club was heading down the wrong path, which later came to light; they did not want to create more decisiveness than was already apparent to those who were privy to the actions. They wanted what was best for the club and it was obvious that the wrong fork in the road had been chosen, so rather than hop on the bandwagon and defend actions that they knew to be wrong they resigned.

The board in place is not perfect by any means, but they do have some new talent that does want to listen and make the club what it was established to be and who recognize the purpose of the club from its beginnings as a small group of guys who loved and appreciated Alfas as well as wanted the marque both respected and appreciated as well as preserved.

Stu, I recognize that you have issues with AROC as I have, and I would venture to say that mine were felt daily and very personally because of Pat's long association and relationship with the club. All I ask is that if I can attempt to move forward and give them a chance that you do also as hard as it may be.

BrewThack said:
One very encouraging reflection is the upgraded membership categories. Rather than even discussing raising base dues, we added family, "Verde," and "Platinum Business" membership categories that have been surprisingly popular.
For me personally, not that anyone cares, I'd like to see a membership level, as long as we're creating all these levels and perks, between the Gold and Platinum Business as far as offerings. We both want an Alfa Owner and we both want to vote, which we currently pay $120 a year for; we have plenty of Alfa trinkets, I hesitate to use "jewelry" as a designation here, so none of the other add-ons are important. Just a thought....I don't know if anyone else is in the same place or not.
 

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I don't really understand what the problem seems to be...if I understand it correctly, there are some who feel that AROC Board Members are 'unapproachable'. I have never found that to be the case...and even if there have been some dorks on the Board from time to time, NOBODY has a monopoly on them - if you catch my drift. The current stewardship seems pretty good and the ship is avoiding the big rocks. From the Prez on down, each of the Board Members is pretty easy to communicate with in my experience.

I enjoy reading Alfa Owner magazine, going to National Conventions, supporting other Alfisti in their passions and helping out wherever and whenever I can. To me, AROC is a great organization and I am surprised they allow me to be a member!:D
 

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There seems to be a signifigant delta between those who have been long time AROC members and those who are relatively recent. There is no harm in either, but for those who do not have an appreciation for AROC's history, I suggest they pick up a copy of Pat Braden's last (and my opinion most interesting) book, "Alfa Romeo All-Alloy Twin Cam Companion, 1954-1994: Four-Cylinder History, Care, and Restoration : Giulietta, Giulia, and Alfetta Families (Paperback)." Inside is a well written timeline of both the club and Alfa's presense in the US - both good and bad. Considering the treatment Pat (and others) received from certain board members over the years, I am amazed it was as even handed as it was. He is sorely missed.

For others the above reading might offer some perspective beore being so quick to dismiss the opinion of some long time members. Perhaps some of us just don't like seeing the club make the same mistakes over and over.....
 

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For others the above reading might offer some perspective beore being so quick to dismiss the opinion of some long time members. Perhaps some of us just don't like seeing the club make the same mistakes over and over.....
For the record, I value everybody's opinion. Especially as a BoD member, I do care about how to make the club better for all. That said, I personally don't want to be dragged into a mud slinging contest over who said what to whom 20 years ago. I also don't want to be somehow deemed guilty by virtue of serving on a board on which somebody in the past may have done something wrong.

I want to focus on what we have today, and how we can make the best of it.

If I see anybody playing games, I'll do my best to deal with it. If you see anybody playing games, then please let me or anybody else on the BoD know and we'll do our best to deal with it.

And if folks somehow see a need to rehash what went on in the past, and think it will help, then feel free, but I'll be on the sidelines for that discussion.

Sincerely,

bs
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Board Members Request / History

...For others the above reading might offer some perspective be[f]ore being so quick to dismiss the opinion of some long time members. Perhaps some of us just don't like seeing the club make the same mistakes over and over.....
The problem is that some don't believe that history repeats itself as they walk around half blind-folded, so they are not repeating a mistake or something from the past, they are simply coming up with "new" solutions to problems that should have been avoided in the first place, had anyone paid attention or listened in the first place.
 

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Whoa there little buckaroos! I've only been with AROO and AROC for about 7 years, but I see no danged problem with the majority of highly respected volunteers in either organization over this span! I know my ranting opinions matter little, but I think anyone with a spur to grind over this particular issue needs to get over it and moo on! Save it for more important issues in the off topic thread!
 

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I'm with RC and BS on this issue.:mad:

Look, if you are going to make allusions to some vague issues from yesteryear and try and pawn them off as something which only a select few old-timers know about...and yet try and tell those "newer members" who are volunteering their time, effort and not inconsiderable talents how we must not repeat the past, then at least do the rest of us the courtesy of either explaining yourselves or let sleeping dogs lay.

I am not a Board Member...never have been. But I have been and continue to be involved in my local chapter and I have seen a lot of club politics. In my humble opinion, some folks NEED to remember that it is, after all...JUST a car club! This is NOT the United Nations nor is it the Board of Directors of a major corporation. In the end, let's all try and remember what AROC (and any other Alfa-related club) is really ALL about:

"The purposes of this Club are to foster, encourage, and promote among owners and followers of Alfa Romeo automobiles, knowledge of the history and tradition of the marque; to make available and to disseminate technical information useful in promoting knowledge and understanding for the efficient and safe operation of Alfa Romeo automobiles; to organize social, educational and amateur sporting events; and to teach, promote and encourage safe and skillful driving in both competition events and upon the public highways."

If old feuds and wars are still brewing out there...I suggest you either bring them out in the open or just let them go. What possible benefit is it to the current and future membership to have old warts and open sores continue to fester?

OK, let the flames begin!
 

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The problem is that some don't believe that history repeats itself as they walk around half blind-folded, so they are not repeating a mistake or something from the past, they are simply coming up with "new" solutions to problems that should have been avoided in the first place, had anyone paid attention or listened in the first place.
I believe a specific example, from you or anyone else, would be very helpful in understanding what are the problems, in order to brainstorm solutions. So, specifically:
  1. What is the mistake that is currently being repeated by those who "walk around half blind-folded"?
  2. What "new solutions to the problems" is the club following, or is about to follow which you are referring to?
  3. What are the current "problems that should have been avoided in the first place"?
  4. What has been suggested to the current Board of Directors that they have not "paid attention (to) or listened (to) in the first place"?
Best regards,
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Board Members Request / Vague Issues

"...The purposes of this Club are to foster, encourage, and promote among owners and followers of Alfa Romeo automobiles, knowledge of the history and tradition of the marque; to make available and to disseminate technical information useful in promoting knowledge and understanding for the efficient and safe operation of Alfa Romeo automobiles; to organize social, educational and amateur sporting events; and to teach, promote and encourage safe and skillful driving in both competition events and upon the public highways."

OK, let the flames begin!
You asked for clarification of vague....

I'm also certain that Alex is not nearly as naive as he portrays in his post about vague issues. You might try adding to the purpose above, based on experience, "lying, cheating, mis-appropriating funds, almost losing AROC non-profit status with the IRS, character assassination, wedge driving between publisher, contributors, and AROC, exclusive copyright demands, exclusive intellectual property rights demands, kingship and private domains, etc." just for starters.

We've certainly come a long way from what the original purpose of the club was intended to serve. Thankfully, things are looking up and the Board of Directors is trying to overcome what they've been saddled with, referred to as history, one of which is the "elitist" "unapproachable" attitude because previous board members considered it their private domain, no questions asked. Although, imo, there still should be more free flowing of information to the membership about what exactly the board is doing, considering, buying, planning etc. on a regular basis. While we elect them, when there is an election, they do not and should not have Carte Blanche; it just allows too much opportunity for selective accounting and other creativities as has been illustrated in recent years over convention profits or lack thereof, due to creative accounting and selective reporting which ultimately affects the profit and chapter/AROC profit split. So what can be done at the lower levels can also be done at top level when reporting is not mandated on a regular basis.

It's not just old-timers memories, pick up the newsletters, Alfa Owners, and read away and form your own opinions about how business has been done in the past. If you think that is appropriate and non-problematic than obviously there are no mistakes to be repeated.

RC Hiatt said:
but I am getting confused about what a private bb has to do with the larger scheme of things and there won't be any local chapters without a central hub IMO.
Why don't you write one of your local Board of Directors and ask them how they are connected or not. They are two separate organizations, one is for profit and one is a non-profit, but with a cross-over population, which imo, comprises a portion of the Alfa community and we should support each other; however, not everyone feels that way as has been indicated by posts on another thread.
 

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Cheryl, Gary, Stu -
I would repeat Enrique's request for some specific examples. Vague reference to "lying, cheating, misappropriating funds, almost losing AROC non-profit status with the IRS, character assassination, wedge driving between publisher, contributors, and AROC, exclusive copyright demands, exclusive intellectual property rights demands, kingship and private domains, etc." are not specific examples.
---So, specifically:
  1. What is the mistake that is currently being repeated by those who "walk around half blind-folded"?
  2. What "new solutions to the problems" is the club following, or is about to follow which you are referring to?
  3. What are the current "problems that should have been avoided in the first place"?
  4. What has been suggested to the current Board of Directors that they have not "paid attention (to) or listened (to) in the first place"?
Best regards,
I think some of these responses could develop to be the type of 'constructive criticism' Brian is asking for, and would probably be helpful for the rest of the existing board (none of which served prior to 1998 according to my collection of 'Alfa Owners').
Most sensible and intelligent leaders utilize recognition of past mistakes (some call that 'experience'):) and couple that with their enthusiasm for the future to achieve a balance.
So, once again....Let's talk specifics and move on with some ideas that can make the club more stable and successful.

Respectfully...
 

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Why don't you write one of your local Board of Directors and ask them how they are connected or not. They are two separate organizations, one is for profit and one is a non-profit, but with a cross-over population, which imo, comprises a portion of the Alfa community and we should support each other; however, not everyone feels that way as has been indicated by posts on another thread.
Sorry Cheryl, I don't see the connection. Most Alfa people are on both the bb as well as donating their time to AROC, as well as the digest and other resources. What is the point please? I always hope that my efforts in any sector won't be attacked, but if so, hey, I'm a grown up. Please explain where the problem is.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Cheryl, Gary, Stu -
I would repeat Enrique's request for some specific examples. Vague reference to "lying, cheating, misappropriating funds, almost losing AROC non-profit status with the IRS, character assassination, wedge driving between publisher, contributors, and AROC, exclusive copyright demands, exclusive intellectual property rights demands, kingship and private domains, etc." are not specific examples.

I think some of these responses could develop to be the type of 'constructive criticism' Brian is asking for, and would probably be helpful for the rest of the existing board (none of which served prior to 1998 according to my collection of 'Alfa Owners').
Most sensible and intelligent leaders utilize recognition of past mistakes (some call that 'experience'):) and couple that with their enthusiasm for the future to achieve a balance.
So, once again....Let's talk specifics and move on with some ideas that can make the club more stable and successful.

Respectfully...
Unlike some others, I am not afraid to issue an apology or clarify facts when I'm in error, nor am I afraid of taking the fallout and flack from stirring the pot and actually getting something accomplished as far as "open" communication between the general membership and the board of directors on issues that are important to them. In other words, pot-stirring and tree shaking, no matter how rude an awakening it seems, it does get results. I do and have always had the best interest of AROC and the Alfa community at heart, whether it appears that way or not.


Gordy and Enrique,

Between the three of us we can do exactly what Brian Shorey has asked not be done, name names with specific examples of all the dirty laundry that will do more damage to the club than good. I will be more than happy to give specific examples and names if that is what you want, but I doubt seriously that Brian or any other board member would consider that "constructive criticism" or helpful. Or I could give you enough clues that you can figure it out or do the research on your own.

As far as Enrique's original post about giving an example that fits his questions; first off you might consider the Alfa Owner. The format is horrible: lack of design is evident, it's boring, non-creative, glaring white space on every page with two wide columns to a page except the classified and sponsor page, which in itself is an eyesore, regular columns lack luster and content, when they're there, and are less than informative, there is no real content that indicates that the publisher knows anything historical about the marque or its history, much of the material is regurgitated from chapter newsletters and if you don't race, go to the convention, use the tech lines or the library --- that is your benefit from the National AROC club for $60 a year. Certainly, a subscription to any other car magazine, even low end is a better value.

FTR, the thoughts above are a compilation of my thoughts and the e-mails that I have received regarding the problems with The Alfa Owner.

I've decided to post this quote from an e-mail that I received regarding The Owner since I was given permission to use it anonymously and it pretty well gives a synopsis of all the e-mails that I've received regarding the topic: "It is not representative of a National Club, especially one that charges a minimum of $60. for annual dues. There are chapter newsletters with more informative content, better photos, material that has not been regurgitated and staff who understand the marque and the club."


Understandably, the $30,000 they saved on this last bid to the current publisher is more than evident.

I am more than willing to give credit where credit is due and apologize for recalling incorrectly what I had read in The Owner regarding the $30,000 that was saved. The $30,000 that was saved was due to a change in the printing process not from the publisher, moving from half color to full color in one run of black and white and a second run of color, which is now done in one run instead of two for full color. Casey, the publisher, into the second year of his current contract, assisted AROC, primarily Brewster, the Director/Liaison to the publisher and Chip, the president in implementing the change and saving the money.

It takes a budget to induce contributions that are not the same repeats of years past or reprints from the newsletter exchange. It is not further helped when the publisher either errors in giving proper credit where it's due or doesn't bother to follow-up on it until the complaints start rolling in. Not a good way to do business or attract contributors.

It should be noted that Casey did apologize for the errors or oversights and did give proper credit when it was brought to his attention as did Director, Brian Shorey. The recipients were gracious in receiving the apology and credit due.

I know that the publisher is young, I have no idea of his experience that qualified him to win the contract, but just off hand from the bids and proposals that I've dealt with over the years, I'd say AROC selected an inexperienced publisher; you get what you pay for.

For anyone that the above statement was not clear to, it was my opinion. I have since been informed that Casey is not "young," although that is a relative term, young by my standards and in contrast to my age. Having said that, he is an experienced automotive publisher but still learning the Alfa marque. To show his enthusiasm for the club and his interest in learning the marque, he has a Giulia spider.

I have no idea how they're handling the budget now, in the past Pat was told to keep his mouth shut about what the club was paying him to fill The Alfa Owner every month, and not just his column, there were months when he had to fill the entire magazine or large portions of it because there was nothing else to run.

It has been indicated that the publisher still tries to fill as much of the magazine as he can with contributions, however, he does pay for certain articles at his discretion. So this has not changed over the years as far as the way it is done. There are those that will write simply because they love the club and consider it a donation or gift to AROC by foregoing or not requesting payment for their contributions. The publisher does not have a sufficient budget to pay for all contributions, therein is his discretion. All reprints of articles in The Owner are run by the AROC/liaison prior to publishing and the liaison helps in the selection of the articles used.

The liaison has indicated that he is receiving positive feedback from the AROC community on The Owner and respectively disagrees with my assessment and the e-mails that I've been receiving, so out of this may come a very valuable discussion of what others see where improvement or change could be instituted.

On top of that there was a particular editor, The Owner liaison from AROC, that would edit Pat's copy and completely change the meaning of what he had written. After the publisher went to AROC and told them that was not acceptable and could not be tolerated because of all the corrections that were having to be printed and the letters to the editors that were being received about how could Braden make a mistake like that, he should certainly know better, when in fact he did and what he wrote was not properly reflected due to poor editing.

Then when the magazine changed publishers the club did not disclose to the new publisher that Pat was, in fact, being paid and the new publisher expected him to do it for free, which was simply not going to happen. You will find a gap, where Pat quit and did not write for several issues, until AROC notified the publisher to get him back on board at whatever it took to do the job. The club over time has not been upfront with the membership about what fees were being paid, who they were being paid to, when they were switched from the club as pass-through to the publisher to the publisher side totally. AROC absolutely, drove a wedge between contributors, the publisher, and the club as far as loyalties and where they were as a result of AROC's actions and by not being upfront in the beginning about the process, more lies on top of lies, trying to cover their tracks. And they wonder why they are short on things to run and contributions. I certainly have no clue with history like this.

Recently, Craig Morningstar, at the invitation of Casey, has stepped up to write a monthly column. I found the first one entertaining...I don't have my board minutes in front of me so I don't remember if the publisher is paying him or not. But Craig was around and working for Alfa and Mercedes, as I recall, and was certainly aware of previous Alfa Owner problems. I applaud him for giving it a try with what he knows about past experiences. We can only hope that it improves the content of the current owner.

When the Alfa Owner went from print to electronic where it was posted to the website AROC or more specifically, a particular board member, demanded that AROC owned the copyright on all materials submitted and used, whether it was print, photograph, artwork etc. and that it could be used in multiple places, when it had always been understood that anything submitted was the property of the contributor, who owned copyright on the material, and that it was on a one-time use basis. This was an infringement of intellectual property rights as well as the contributors copyright on his product and violated the law. At this point, all of the main contributors walked and refused to furnish anything further in all of the above categories. The unnamed board member was called to court with the rest of the board and told that he would have to apologize and that the form he sent to all contributors was not Board authorized, was against the law, and contributors would not be forced to sign it, which none of them would have anyway made clear by their actions of withdrawing all work and watching closely to make sure that other submissions were not used in duplicate publications.

There's a start on a couple of the "vague" issues. With the current complaints about the Alfa Owner I can see many of these problems and issues arising again. Let's hope that someone pays attention and does a better job of dealing with them this time around.
 
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