Alfa Romeo Forums banner

41 - 60 of 76 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,643 Posts
Wonder if we can get a breakdown of S1 and S2 in the 3 models of 1750 GTV Steve has shown?
Wiki shows 44269 for total 1750 GTV production.
I think Series II's started in 1970 or was it '71?

Other than the dual circuit brakes, it depended on what they had in stock, but surely there would have been a first car made with dual circuit brakes and from then on always dual circuit.

So to answer your question accurately we need the chassis number of that first dual circuit braked car.
Pete
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
774 Posts
If you look at the body shell for a 1970 1300 GTj in 1970 it's the same as that for 1750 GTV in 1970 I think. I would hazard a guess that with a high demand for 1300 GTj (in 1969 flat top dash: 14,854 produced, and at the end of the supply of flat top dash body shells) the factory in 1970 needed a different body shell and just grabbed 10,000 body shells from the 1750 GTV 1970 series 2 production line and stamped them 1300 GTj, of which they made 12,968 in 1970, thus the low production of 1,542 of 1970 1750 GTVs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,181 Posts
I believe first Euro 1750 GTV with dual circuit brakes was 1375001 which makes the changeover sometime in 1971 ....

USA always had dual circuit first with bottom mounted pedals ...

Did RHD have dual circuit right from the beginning?

I think Series II's started in 1970 or was it '71?

Other than the dual circuit brakes, it depended on what they had in stock, but surely there would have been a first car made with dual circuit brakes and from then on always dual circuit.

So to answer your question accurately we need the chassis number of that first dual circuit braked car.
Pete
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
774 Posts
I had Series 11 RHD AR145 54** with twin boosters and it was listed as build date Sep 1970. Interior was leather Bertone DeLuxe option.
RHD S1 did not have twin bosters
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,336 Posts
1st S2 Euro 1750 GTV

I owned 1375099. I think built in December 1969. I should ask the new owner. Data from the GT Registry shows 1375200 and 1375312 both built on Monday December 29th 1969. So they built at least 113 GTVs that day. Could they have built 200 more? So maybe 1st S2 Euro 1375001 was built Friday Dec 26th 1969??
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,971 Posts
Here is the latest list of 1750 GTVs production as a summary (my opinions) based on Fusi's list and assumptions I have made.
67
1967: AR 105 44 Qty: 919
68
1968: AR 105 44 Qty: 10,419
1968: AR 105 45 Qty: 203
1968: AR 105 51 Qty: 147
69
1969: AR 105 44 Qty: 8,705
1969: AR 105 45 Qty: 1,454
1969: AR 105 51 Qty: 640
70
1970: AR 105 44 Qty: 1,542
1970: AR 105 45 Qty: 912
1970: AR 105 51 Qty: 519
71
1971: AR 105 44 Qty: 4,639
1971: AR 105 45 Qty: 989
1971: AR 105 51 Qty: 1,151
72
1972: AR 105 44 Qty: 8
1972: AR 105 51 Qty: 18
Total 1750 GTVs 32,265
See my previous post for explanations.

Savill's total of 44,276 1750 GTVs over estimates production of GTVs by 12,011 (44,276-32,265) cars.

There may be some RHD and CKD cars that make up part of the 12,011 over estimation 12,011-10,000 = 2,011 cars.

The key point there was an over estimation of 10,000 AR 105 44 1750 GTVs in the 1970 production figures as reported by Savill. From a web source another overestimation of 44,269 was posted in Wiki , Currently the web source has no reference to the 44,269 number or any primary source where it got it's numbers from.
I have made an addition to Wiki, showing my primary source and comment on my assumptions.

Subtotals
AR 105 44 Qty: 26,232
AR 105 45 Qty: 3,558 (assuming AR105 45 cars are RHD)
AR 105 51 Qty: 2,475 Fuel injected

It's just a pity it has taken over 30 years to bring this shocking revelation of 10,000 fewer AR 105 44 1750 GTVs cars were made.
Cheers Steve
the problem with finding a more accurate number for usa unique fed "51" 69 gtv cars is it appears they cobbled series one and two together? 51s built in 68 were 69 specs. folks are telling me some extended to 70. so how many were built in 70 before switching over to series 2 1750s?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,971 Posts
Kind of a fun thread for us GTV geeks. A couple observations:

1. According to my respective owner's manuals, the '69 weighs 2292 lbs, while the '74 weighs in at 2305 lbs. The difference is about how much I fluctuate each day.....

2. I don't know if this really impacts the value, but the '69 US GTVs are rare in the world of GTVs, with about 1200 produced. (Same is true of '71 US GTVs, also about 1200). Keep in mind more than 41,000 1750 GTVs were built for all markets from '68 -'72.
yes fun indeed with fellas here on the BB even more geeky than I... its great isnt it? :)

interesting what the owners manual says. i recall a few period magazines that actually weighed the cars rather than relying on factory specs found that the S1 cars were heavier than both the s2 1750 and 2000. i will try to dig them up when i get a chance... but dont hold your breath on this one.

bodywise as i recall since the mechanicals are similar amongst the euro gtv spec cars. the euro 4 lamp s1 cars 1750 weber/del cars were significantly heavier than the s2 1750-2000 gtvs though the 2 liter cars had, larger displacement, heavier prop shaft, rear axle and a LSD.

the usa specs car were closer in weight, it must have been the plastic instrument bezels, smaller console, lighter stainless steel bumpers, simplified pedal box and mc etc to offset the heavier and weaker earlier chassis?

how does one accurately determine the cutoff date or build numbers of the spica 69 spec s1 cars to s2 71 spec cars? i didnt know the fed s2 were as rare as the s1s at 1200 units.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,204 Posts
how does one accurately determine the cutoff date or build numbers of the spica 69 spec s1 cars to s2 71 spec cars? i didnt know the fed s2 were as rare as the s1s at 1200 units.
I think there is a gap in the serial number sequence. The '69 run begins at about 1530000 and ends up around 1531250. The '71s begin around 1532000 and go up to 1533200 or so.
This is based on my observations and Pat Hung's GTV registry here on the BB.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,643 Posts
Series I door window winder mechanism is another difference, and much heavier than the cable system used on the Series II.
Pete
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,336 Posts
sprintgtc, I don't see that gap in #s for 10551s. We need someone with a 71 USA GTV to read the cover of the supplement to the owners manual. I just looked at my Euro supplement. As we know 1375001 is 1st S2 Euro. 1454001 is 1st RHD S2 Euro. Registry shows an S1 1453168 built on September 6 1969 and an S2 1454304 built March 31 1970. So somewhere between the 2 dates was the 1st S2 RHD 1750. I am thinking there is a big gap in production dates between the last S1 USA and the 1st S2 USA due to no USA sales of a 1970 model in 1970.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,643 Posts
My RHD car (1456250) was made on the 25th of January 1971, so can we assume the first S2 (1454001) was made near the end of 1970?

EDIT: If the 113 cars per day mentioned earlier in this thread is taken as correct, then 1454001 was made 19 days earlier than mine, so on the 6th of January assuming there were no holidays in between.

So close to the start of 1971 that it makes me think S2 manufacture intentionally started in 1971
Pete
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,336 Posts
PSk, 113 was a minimum estimate for one particular day Dec 29 1969. First RHD S2 was built before March 1970 likely January 1970. See post #55 data from registry.???
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,643 Posts
PSk, 113 was a minimum estimate for one particular day Dec 29 1969. First RHD S2 was built before March 1970 likely January 1970. See post #55 data from registry.???
Oops, missed that. Fascinating that there was potentially a year between the first RHD S2 (1454001) and my car (1456250) which is only 2249 GTVs later.

I wonder if they tooled the line to make Berlina's and then made a run of them, adjusted the line to make Spiders, and then adjusted the line to make GTV's, which would explain the large gap in time?
Pete
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
774 Posts
If you have a look at the factory films, you will notice some things.
They had huge stockpiles of body panels in racks. Presses were most likely working night and day to build the stocks up, they were huge 4 panel presses.
Only once they had enough panels they would start as they knew how long it would take to weld the body shell together so as not to run out of panels. There were dedicated areas, floor pans/sills jigged and spot welded together (20-30 minutes as per the film), then side skeleton frames and roof skeleton and finally external panels. I would hazard a guess the body shell of the car would take less than 3-4 hours to put together. The workers were at it from 1963, so as they got more experience may have got this even lower. As to a possible reason/s why we find 15 spot welds on the horn bracket ?
I think the factory was so big they would have had separate lines for each model, Berlina and Spider.
Steve
 
41 - 60 of 76 Posts
Top