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Guys, I have owned both a 69 USA version and a Euro version GT, and a 69 Spider USA, so two with Spica and one with carbs. Obviously a few variations here but shouldn't we go with build dates confirmed by the factory? Fact or not, even Fusi has been questioned in the past. I guess my point is the 69s were a blend of parts transitioning from the 67s to the 72s. So rule out the 71s with blending with the 72s, and as we have seen there were carryover components. If memory serves my EuroGT was a 68 with side intake (not cross over like the 67s). My point is common ground, If the Factory says it is a 69USA, then that's what it is regardless of when it was sold, etc.
 

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Please correct me if I am wrong or someone has already commented but the tail lights on this car aren't correct for a US 69 model.
Tim
Tim
Tim, if you mean the amber turn signal lense... well those are still found NOS and the repops as well. The all red ones are much harder to find and I don't think they were ever repopped. Sometimes it's better to be good than absolutely correct for the market..there is no inspection that will fail them.
 

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I think I have my digits all crossed up, thanks to all for the correction.
Looks like Fusi's page 844 which lists 1969 GTV 1750 USA as AR 1533348 to AR1533987. Is this not correct?

Just checked Alfa 105 register owners have listed their cars AR1530148 to AR1530856 as being 1969 cars. Certainly the car sold on BAT is in this range.
Cheers Steve
 

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Ranz, the year of a car is determined by when it was first sold. It is stupid but car sales men probably made it this way otherwise how would they move slow selling cars, i.e. who would buy a year old car when a current year one is available for the same price.

My 156v6 is an example. It's papers say it is a 2002, but it was actually built in 2001 ... so to me it's a 2001 but the parts shops correct me and say it says 2002 in our computer ...
Pete
That's true in every part of the planet but the US. In the US, new cars typically come out in the fall. So, a 2019 model year car will have been manufactured sometime in 2018. Now, back in the day, there were many Alfas manufactured in 1968 that were sold as 1969 model years.....in the US

There are a number of US spec, SPICA injected cars that are sold as 1969 and 1970 model year cars. Some of these cars were manufactured in 1970.

I think it's important to make note of both dates.
 

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Why rule out the 71s ?

Guys, I have owned both a 69 USA version and a Euro version GT, and a 69 Spider USA, so two with Spica and one with carbs. Obviously a few variations here but shouldn't we go with build dates confirmed by the factory? Fact or not, even Fusi has been questioned in the past. I guess my point is the 69s were a blend of parts transitioning from the 67s to the 72s. So rule out the 71s with blending with the 72s, and as we have seen there were carryover components. If memory serves my EuroGT was a 68 with side intake (not cross over like the 67s). My point is common ground, If the Factory says it is a 69USA, then that's what it is regardless of when it was sold, etc.
For the USA market the 1600 GT transitioned to the 1600 GTV transitioned to the S1 USA 1750 GTV transitioned to the S2 USA 1750 GTV transitioned to the USA version 2000 GTV. What I am trying to say is for me the year it was made or sold does not matter that much, it is more about what the car is. If a S1 USA 1750 GTV was made in 68, 69 or 70 what's the difference they are all the same unless the # 69 has more value than the #68 or #70.
 

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[snip]
..., it’s also lighter and has a stronger stiffer chassis
[snip]
Err.. what, how so - curious minds need to know??

If anything, in my mind, it will be heavier as Alfa increased the gauge of the steel used in certain sections?
 

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Pardon my ignorance, I’m still learning about these old Alfa’s! but what’s special about a 1969 model?
I think this was the original question.. I spoke to Craig Morningstar who was the factory rep in the US. He said basically AR sold no new cars here in '68 and introduced the '69 FI with seats and small tail lights in '69 and were US legal. In 1970, AR had a problem with emissions again and went back to the drawing board with the SPICA and there was no fix as standards changed. Then there is the case where some states registered a car as new when first registered... so technically some '69's could be put on the road in 1970 as 70's depending on the state's registration rules so again no cars were sold . Then '71 rolled around and AR was back in business with tweeked timing and over-run emission controls that put them back in business at which time the big tail lights and standard seats became the model. So in conclusion the small tail light cars with buttress seats have been simply referred to as "69's" regardless of when they were made or where they were registered and it was the only iteration of the car in the US in '69. The 'legal 71's" were the next breed with standard seats and bigger tail lights and they were the last 1750's with the 2 liters to follow being introduced in mid to late '71 as '72's. So in some states even though a sticker on the windshield called the car by it's model year the new buyer would have the year of registration tacked onto his title depending on the state in which it was first registered..

All very complicated but the best I can do to make it sensible.
 

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I think this was the original question.. I spoke to Craig Morningstar who was the factory rep in the US. He said basically AR sold no new cars here in '68 and introduced the '69 FI with seats and small tail lights in '69 and were US legal. In 1970, AR had a problem with emissions again and went back to the drawing board with the SPICA and there was no fix as standards changed. Then there is the case where some states registered a car as new when first registered... so technically some '69's could be put on the road in 1970 as 70's depending on the state's registration rules so again no cars were sold . Then '71 rolled around and AR was back in business with tweeked timing and over-run emission controls that put them back in business at which time the big tail lights and standard seats became the model. So in conclusion the small tail light cars with buttress seats have been simply referred to as "69's" regardless of when they were made or where they were registered and it was the only iteration of the car in the US in '69. The 'legal 71's" were the next breed with standard seats and bigger tail lights and they were the last 1750's with the 2 liters to follow being introduced in mid to late '71 as '72's. So in some states even though a sticker on the windshield called the car by it's model year the new buyer would have the year of registration tacked onto his title depending on the state in which it was first registered..

All very complicated but the best I can do to make it sensible.

thats how i remembered it...
 

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Kind of a fun thread for us GTV geeks. A couple observations:

1. According to my respective owner's manuals, the '69 weighs 2292 lbs, while the '74 weighs in at 2305 lbs. The difference is about how much I fluctuate each day.....

2. I don't know if this really impacts the value, but the '69 US GTVs are rare in the world of GTVs, with about 1200 produced. (Same is true of '71 US GTVs, also about 1200). Keep in mind more than 41,000 1750 GTVs were built for all markets from '68 -'72.
 

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2. I don't know if this really impacts the value, but the '69 US GTVs are rare in the world of GTVs, with about 1200 produced. (Same is true of '71 US GTVs, also about 1200). Keep in mind more than 41,000 1750 GTVs were built for all markets from '68 -'72.
I guess I recognized that in post #4
 

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Agreed, but I like numbers! And, production was much lower than the 1600 GT Veloce - of which about 14,000 were made.
At first I was not sure of the total for 1750 GTV, as per Fusi pages 843 to 836 as there are some typos, plus now with Savill's numbers 'The Guilia Coupes 1963-1976 (1998) page 15. I am reviewing all of my calculations and assumptions and assumptions made by Savill.

I am in the process of of triple checking calculations.
Feel free to point out any errors I have made.
1967: AR 105 44 Qty: 919
1968: AR 105 44 Qty: 10,419
1968: AR 105 45 Qty: 203
1968: AR 105 51 Qty: 147

Here is how I got to 1969 numbers
69
44 1370043 1361339 8,705
45 1451657 1450204 1,454
51 1533987 1533348 6,40
see first image for 1969 GTVs from Fusi's book see page 844.
1969: AR 105 44 Qty: 8,705
1969: AR 105 45 Qty: 1,454
1969: AR 105 51 Qty: 640
Notice I have made an assumption like Savill that Fusi meant 1370043 and not 1360043 in 1969
But here is the catch: If you assume it's 1370043 and not 1360043 in 1969, so when you come to work out 1970's numbers you have to use 1370044, not 1360044, see second image for 1970 GTVs from Fusi's book, page 845.
Guess what Savill used 1360044 for 1970 that means he double counted the cars like this 1371585 minus 1360044 equals 11,542 cars as per his number 11,542 in his book
when it should have been 1371585 minus 1370044 equals 1,542.
So an over estimation of the 1970: AR 105 44 1750 GTVs by 10,000 cars!
So for 1970 GTVs I say it should be
1970: AR 105 44 Qty: 1,542
1970: AR 105 45 Qty: 912
1970: AR 105 51 Qty: 519

1971: AR 105 44 Qty: 4,639
1971: AR 105 45 Qty: 989
1971: AR 105 51 Qty: 1,151

1972: AR 105 44 Qty: 8
1972: AR 105 51 Qty: 18
Total 1750 GTVs 32,265 So neither Savill or Wiki are correct!
Subtotals
AR 105 44 Qty: 26,232
AR 105 45 Qty: 3,558 RHD
AR 105 51 Qty: 2,475 Fuel injected
 

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Wonder if we can get a breakdown of S1 and S2 in the 3 models of 1750 GTV Steve has shown?
Wiki shows 44269 for total 1750 GTV production.
 

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officially there werent ANY alfa's tag for usa in 1970 yet a number of euro spec came in through canada
I owned a '70 Spider that came in by that route.
 

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Steve105 said:
1971: AR 105 44 Qty: 4,638
1971: AR 105 45 Qty: 988
1971: AR 105 51 Qty: 1,150
105.44 = European spec model, I think => carb's
105.45 = European spec model but RHD => carb's
105.51 = American spec model => Spica fuel injection

I believe all 1750's made in 1971 would be Series II's, which for the 105.45 meant floor hinged pedals, dual circuit brakes and more conventional seats (not flying buttress type). One can debate whether 4 cooling slots or 2 on the front panel, and small or large tail lights in the rear panel as it appears Luigi just used whatever was there. My RHD car has 2 cooling slots and small tail lights (thankfully, as personally not a fan of the larger ones).
Pete
 

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One can debate whether 4 cooling slots or 2 on the front panel, and small or large tail lights in the rear panel as it appears Luigi just used whatever was there. My RHD car has 2 cooling slots and small tail lights (thankfully, as personally not a fan of the larger ones).
Pete
Pete - have you ever seen a non-US market 1750 with the larger tail lights? Can't say I ever have, always believed that was a US market thing and that all others only had the large tail lights on 2000 GTV's. Always happy to be corrected though.
 

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One can debate whether 4 cooling slots or 2 on the front panel, and small or large tail lights in the rear panel as it appears Luigi just used whatever was there. My RHD car has 2 cooling slots and small tail lights (thankfully, as personally not a fan of the larger ones).
Pete
Pete - have you ever seen a non-US market 1750 with the larger tail lights? Can't say I ever have, always believed that was a US market thing and that all others only had the large tail lights on 2000 GTV's. Always happy to be corrected though.
Agree
Pete
 

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Here is the latest list of 1750 GTVs production as a summary (my opinions) based on Fusi's list and assumptions I have made.
67
1967: AR 105 44 Qty: 919
68
1968: AR 105 44 Qty: 10,419
1968: AR 105 45 Qty: 203
1968: AR 105 51 Qty: 147
69
1969: AR 105 44 Qty: 8,705
1969: AR 105 45 Qty: 1,454
1969: AR 105 51 Qty: 640
70
1970: AR 105 44 Qty: 1,542
1970: AR 105 45 Qty: 912
1970: AR 105 51 Qty: 519
71
1971: AR 105 44 Qty: 4,639
1971: AR 105 45 Qty: 989
1971: AR 105 51 Qty: 1,151
72
1972: AR 105 44 Qty: 8
1972: AR 105 51 Qty: 18
Total 1750 GTVs 32,265
See my previous post for explanations.

Savill's total of 44,276 1750 GTVs over estimates production of GTVs by 12,011 (44,276-32,265) cars.

There may be some RHD and CKD cars that make up part of the 12,011 over estimation 12,011-10,000 = 2,011 cars.

The key point there was an over estimation of 10,000 AR 105 44 1750 GTVs in the 1970 production figures as reported by Savill. From a web source another overestimation of 44,269 was posted in Wiki , Currently the web source has no reference to the 44,269 number or any primary source where it got it's numbers from.
I have made an addition to Wiki, showing my primary source and comment on my assumptions.

Subtotals
AR 105 44 Qty: 26,232
AR 105 45 Qty: 3,558 (assuming AR105 45 cars are RHD)
AR 105 51 Qty: 2,475 Fuel injected

It's just a pity it has taken over 30 years to bring this shocking revelation of 10,000 fewer AR 105 44 1750 GTVs cars were made.
Cheers Steve
 
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