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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Before the other members must open this theme with spectacular small car seeing in this year edition "Auto e Moto D´epoca Padova 2014" -"Best Of Show?!"

Stanguellini Fiat 1100 Sport Berlinetta carr. Motto from 1949?


Car was participated on Mille Miglia 1952 (dnf ) & ? 24 h Le mans ? (did not any information about this!)



https://www.flickr.com/photos/cc_rc/sets/72157648918589956/
 

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Car driven by Succo/Reinaldi in the 1952 MM.
If you have a pic of the engine we could see if is an original 1100 tuned by Stanguellini or not. Body by Motto for sure, i think the chassis is a 1100S, one of the many Fiat got back as a payment for a blocked order.
 

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The problem with the vintage sport cars recently refurbished is the same always: the seller doesn't know where to find the original spare parts and/or how to fit them up. This car has the original Fiat 1100 block, an head that could be a Stanguellini, a Cisitalia manifold, 2 Webers. At the end of the day this engine doesn't represent anything at all. Shame.
 

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Fiat 1100S 5000053

It seems easy for some to find fault with the visual appearance of engine tuning accessories. In the absence of meaningful context, I am not terribly concerned with judging what a former owner might have done in period or even more recently to achieve better performance or perhaps a mixture of performance and economy. My question is, Why does anyone wish to believe that this car should be labeled "Stanguellini"? The Stanguellini badge is easy to acquire and place on the car today. Does this mean that it is historically appropriate? At this moment, I do not know. But, if it was important to me, I would study this point before pretending that the car is "wrong" simply for having a Cisitalia manifold instead of a Stanguellini manifold. Either one ... or even an original Fiat manifold (perhaps with only one carburetor?) ... will get the car down the road, the primary purpose of any such car.

This car was first registered 1948 in Torino, almost certainly with a Fiat-made body rather typical of your average Fiat 1100S. It could have had tuning that was rather "normal" (for a Fiat 1100S) or may have been quite special, either when new or shortly after it was delivered to its first owner. Originally, it is unlikely to have had either Cisitalia or Stanguellini tuning. But, such tuning could have been applied very early on in the car's life? I've not made the car a study, so I cannot know. If there is no one who has made a true study of this specific car, then others cannot know either. To speak negatively of it without knowing the use history shows only that there is a certain kind of prejudice at play.

I wonder when the collector car world will generally come to realize that there were no builders of sports and racing cars who presumed that each car was perfectly suited (when first delivered) to be used at each and every event at which it might be used? This was even more true of production-based cars than the cars that were specifically built to be racing cars. Any good preparer of any of the cars that we hold in high esteem today (in part because of the histories made) will acknowledge that each car was prepared quite specifically, and often differently for each event. "Originality" was never an issue and we are arrogant today when we pretend that it is some holy ideal that somehow makes a car (or an owner or restorer) somehow "good" or "bad" if a visible component was "improved" according to the needs of the moment.

This car was re-registered July 1951 in Torino for its second owner, perhaps in conjunction with the Motto body being fitted? The original plate was declared "lost" at that time. This might imply that the original body had been crashed and perhaps the plates damaged or lost as a result? If so, this may have been the result of some interesting event or perhaps some event that might best be forgotten? It might be that the plates were lost during the car's transfer from one owner to the other? Or they may have been stolen. One reason might seem more romantic than another, but "romance" is not always the reason why some things happen!

Perhaps we might begin with some basics? Does the car still have the original Fiat 1100S engine fitted? With its gear-driven cam? And some other original goodies? Does the gearbox have some special ratios as per the original? If so, any of these would seem to be positive features for those who think that any car is "original" only if it still has its original engine (and transmission?) in somewhat original configuration(s). My own thought is that having the original engine is nice ... and perhaps a sign that the car has led a charmed life ... and/or was not used hard enough to have made any truly significant racing history of its own? If the car does not have its original engine, that may only be a sign that the car might have broken its engine definitively on the Mille Miglia of 1952 (where it failed to finish the race for some reason) ... or even earlier. Or later?

Is there a reason why the manifolding and carburetion has been changed? Is it a good reason? Or perhaps we might ask, "Is the change the result of early history or is it the result of recent history? These kinds of questions can be asked for any "non-original" component in the car. Until those questions are asked and answered, we really don't know much of anything about this specific car's history. Nor do we know what forms it might be allowed to have today and still be called "original" or merely "important".

Originality is nice to find in any car. It allows us to learn something about that car and its builders. Once a car has been restored, it is no longer "original", no matter how much we try to pretend it is. Once we acknowledge that point, we can then argue in friendly terms about how "honest" a car's presentation seems to be to the original build ... or to a certain point in time that some might consider to be more important in that car's life.
 

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Because i know how many deceitful or unprepared dealers hang out at Padoa, by the way this year there were sky-high prices, mine was a warning only and not an historical analysis. Beware of waste money surrending to the flatteries of the MM eligible cars without a serious knowledge.
 

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...
we can then argue in friendly terms about how "honest" a car's presentation seems to be to the original build ... or to a certain point in time that some might consider to be more important in that car's life.
In architectural preservation--with more developed preservation protocols than cars enjoy, we refer to that point in time as the "period of significance".
 

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On sale also this rare Moretti "Cita" 350 cc., year 1948. Rare but expensive.
The request was € 50,000 (around 40.000 $) !!!
I wish this was true but as off today, Euro 50k are more like $63k.

Mike
 
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