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Discussion Starter #61
Bruce,
To promote and encourage safety at the AROSC track events how about offering point credits for safety features? E.g.:
- Fuel cell: -2 points
- Full cage: -2 points
- Fire suppression system: -2 points
- HANS device: -2 points
Some of them even make somewhat sense, generally, as they add weight. Just a thought...
Jes
Interesting thought. Let's see what some of the other Alfa drivers think at the next event (WSIR, Mar 22 & 23).
 

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Interesting thought. Let's see what some of the other Alfa drivers think at the next event (WSIR, Mar 22 & 23).
I think this is a great idea! Compared to other racing organizations, AROSC is very "laid-back" in the use of safety equipment. This is a great way to encourage the use of modern safety technology without "forcing" the drivers to do so.

Colin
 

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Relaxing Harness Requirements for Novice TT

Gifford told me to put this topic here...

I agree that relaxing the harness requirements will allow us to attract more drivers to AROSC TT events.
I've tried to recruit people to come out with us, but many of my friends don't have harnesses and won't come out because of this requirement. These are responsible folks, not hot heads, and they have nice cars and don't want to wreck them. I've run with these guys at different HPDE events and they would be great additions to our club. These other groups also put safety first and I've witnessed no incidents (except the owner of Spring Mountain crashing his helicopter outside of turn 7). The other groups I've run with that don't have a harness requirement are:
Corvette Track Days sponsored by Spring Mountain
National Corvette Museum HPDE
SpeedTrialUSA
Los Angeles Shelby American Automobile Club
OpenTrackRacing
and TCRA.

Yes. TCRA. In March, joint with AROSC, for one day (Saturday before Easter Sunday) before I knew that AROSC would have let me pay for one day. So I paid TCRA to run, sharing the track with AROSC cars and harnessless TCRA cars. If we run joint events with TCRA, we already have the problem of cars without harnesses sharing the track with us. The only difference is that these people are paying their entry fees to TCRA. At the Sept 13,14 Spring Mountain event, I can probably get my DigitalCorvettes.com friends to come out (Spring Mountain is a favorite track with vette guys), but if they don't have harnesses, I'll tell them to sign up with TCRA. So I'll be at the track with my Vette buddies, but TCRA will get the money. I'd much rather that they come as AROSC registrants, and maybe they'll come out to the Oct Willow Springs event with us.

Something to consider.
Roy.
 

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Good points Jes in both threads. Certainly individuals can choose to add safety equipment to their cars regardless of the requirements. We do still have the issue of shared run groups with TCRA at our joint events.

So for these events drivers currently have a choice:
Run with AROSC or run with TCRA is you have a harness.
Run with TCRA if you do not have a harness.
Choose not to run because TCRA cars with less safety equipment will be sharing the track.

It still remains an individual's choice as to what to do and how much safety equipment they want given that accidents will happen. With our current rules, people without harnesses have no choice but to run with another group if they still want to run on a track without a harness.

I personally like having a harness in my car. But that is my choice.
Roy.
 

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As one of the co-founders of the AROSC on-track program, and an author of the original National Competition Code, let me chime in...
There was a HUGE argument back in the day over wether or not to require roll bars in open cars... we insisted that they be required in our AROSC code, and Tom Sutter & I spent a 15 hour long National BOD meeting defending that position... we won. It is likely that that victory has saved several lives in the ensuing 35 ± years.
A 5~6-point harness can be installed without ANY mods to most cars... SNAP OUT OF IT!!! This is a NO BRAINER!
If you are the "Responsible Party" in organizing any event you don't want to be the one making that phone call to the next of kin explaining that your loose rules (made in the name of attracting more entrants) have cost a life. THIS IS A STUPID DEBATE!!!
 

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Would it be possible, at some tracks, AROSC could have a special novice group where, while the harness requirement is dropped, cones are put at 1 or 2 sections of the track to slow cars down? Passing zones should also be restricted to the front straight only and stricter rules should be enforced for any sort of off track excursions, tailgating or going sideways too often. For the novice group, no times will be recorded and there will not be any timed session. This group should strictly be an open track session for novice drivers.

My thought was, AROSC could create the novice group where the safety rules could be viewed at the same level as the street performance driving school.

Drivers who want to be timed and go faster need to fit a 5-point harness and join one of the Time Trial run groups.

This idea may sound silly to some, but I thought I would just put it out there.
 

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As one of the co-founders of the AROSC on-track program, and an author of the original National Competition Code, let me chime in...
There was a HUGE argument back in the day over wether or not to require roll bars in open cars... we insisted that they be required in our AROSC code, and Tom Sutter & I spent a 15 hour long National BOD meeting defending that position... we won. It is likely that that victory has saved several lives in the ensuing 35 ± years.
A 5~6-point harness can be installed without ANY mods to most cars... SNAP OUT OF IT!!! This is a NO BRAINER!
If you are the "Responsible Party" in organizing any event you don't want to be the one making that phone call to the next of kin explaining that your loose rules (made in the name of attracting more entrants) have cost a life. THIS IS A STUPID DEBATE!!!
I agree. Relaxing the safety regulations is not the way to go. Anyone willing to gamble with their life to avoid drilling a few small holes does not have their priorities straight. I believe that there are other ways of boosting the number of entrants to our events.

The club could do any or all of the following:
1) Offer the sale of gift cards.
2) Offer discounts to new participants.
3) Offer a freebie for early registration. - Free tech inspection, a cap, a t-shirt...
4) Offer a discount to repeat entrants.
5) Offer the sale of a one year pass.
6) Offer a Saturday only option.
7) Schedule dates more evenly throughout the year.
8) Advertise our events better. - flyers, cards, website...
9) Accept credit card pyments.
10) Streamline registration.
11) Reverse prizes - winners pay $100 for 1st place, $59 for 2nd, $29.95 for 3rd place.:D

Ok, now you guys think of something.
 

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In regards to "coning" the track

I have ran with SCCA doing Solo2 events at Buttonwillow where they put cones on the track to slow cars down. There was much debate on weather or not it was safer to have cars slow down, or more dangerous to have cones on the track because you would end up with more off course excursions due to the placement of the cones. plus there were silly rules about going off track and getting booted from the event...but thats a whole different issue.

I think that having harnesses is a good thing. I always praise AROSC as a safety first club and our strict rules show it.
 

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Alfa Driving school certification

Bruce,

In approx. 1997 my wife (Laurie) and I participated in an Alfa Driving school program at Willow Springs. One of the driving instructors was David Fisher whom my wife worked for before he was tragically killed on the race track.

We have relocated back to our New England roots and want to do some vintage racing with my 1933 MG L2. I'm a member of VSCCA and If I had a copy of the certificate that I beleive we were given, could likely run in VSCCA events without attending their driving school which always seems to be run when I can't attend.

Perhaps you could forward this on to someone who might keep old records. I can most easily be reached at [email protected]

Thanks for any assistance you are able to provide.

Regards,

Chris Nowlan
 

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Roll cage construction question

So I bought this weld-in rollcage kit for a gtv6 from autopower. It's designed to weld-up to their roll-bar which I already had, which seemed like a good idea at the time. Both sections are designed to fit a car with a full interior (although why anyone would want to weld this cage into a car with a full interior is beyond me). Needless to say that when installed in a car with no interior, the fit leaves something to be desired.

So, here's the question: Is it more important to have the "upright" section of the front cage section perfectly vertical, or is it better to have a much closer fit to the "A" pillar with the "upright" raked to the rear a couple of degrees? With this kit, I can't have both unfortunately. Knowing how weak the A-pillars are in GTV6's I'm tempted to have a nice close fit with the upright raked aft a little. My thinking is that although the cage woulld not be quite as sturdy when an impact comes directly from above, in a rollover the A-pillar (and subsequently the roll-cage) would hit first, and absorb most of the energy. It'll be fully guseted, and supported by 2 door-bars. This is the arrangement that makes most sense to me, but I was hoping to get some input from some of the tech inspectors before I weld it in.

Anybody have any thoughts?
 

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I say rake it. The cage will dramatically out-perform the original structure, even at a very weird angle... even leaning back, with longitudinal bars (connecting the front hoop to the main roll bar) it will provide mucho support.
I run my GTV with only a roll bar with back braces, door "side crash" bars, and over the knee cross bar... no front cage hoop... saves about 90#... and will be crash safe 99% of the time. Only a submarine impact with a flying car is unprotected... in my 5 decades of race watching I have never seen such a crash... but that doesn't say that it cant happen...
 

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I say rake it. The cage will dramatically out-perform the original structure, even at a very weird angle... even leaning back, with longitudinal bars (connecting the front hoop to the main roll bar) it will provide mucho support.
I run my GTV with only a roll bar with back braces, door "side crash" bars, and over the knee cross bar... no front cage hoop... saves about 90#... and will be crash safe 99% of the time. Only a submarine impact with a flying car is unprotected... in my 5 decades of race watching I have never seen such a crash... but that doesn't say that it cant happen...
I'm thinking about the same type of bar.

How did you do the door bars? Any pictures?
 

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The GTV6 has longish doors. If you have the room you could support the A piller with a vertical tube from the top of your nascar bar. This can also be done with X bars but hortizontal nascar bars give you more options. Also if you gusset the A piller tube to the A piller you dramatically increase the strength and could do away with an A piller support tube.
 

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exit track signal

Hey guys,

At the 10-12-08 Race at WSIR I had an issue with at least one person pointing to the left to indicate that they are pitting.

I confused it for a point by and got a surprise!

Do we have a standard way of signaling intention to pit, like the fist in the air like many other organizations?

It might be worth a brief mention in the drivers meeting at a place like WSIR...
 

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Hey guys,

At the 10-12-08 Race at WSIR I had an issue with at least one person pointing to the left to indicate that they are pitting.

I confused it for a point by and got a surprise!

Do we have a standard way of signaling intention to pit, like the fist in the air like many other organizations?

It might be worth a brief mention in the drivers meeting at a place like WSIR...
This is going to happen if someone that's exiting has their hand out the window and they are off the racing line going through turn 8. They then go wide out of 9 causing what you are describing. When I plan on exiting the track at Willow, I stay on the racing line through 8, and the braking area, and I stay out wide through nine (hopefully me speed is down enough that I don't go off into the dirt), and let everyone behind me go to the inside, and hope they don't came to wide on the exit of 9.


But, to bring up another issue, I noticed at this event a couple of guy in the race group waring Class M (Motorcycle) helmets (you can tell from the design of the chin guard and the eye opening). I thought these were only allowed in the Intro group?
 

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AROSC Time Trial / Race Safety Issues

As one of the co-founders of the AROSC on-track program, and an author of the original National Competition Code, let me chime in...
There was a HUGE argument back in the day over wether or not to require roll bars in open cars... we insisted that they be required in our AROSC code, and Tom Sutter & I spent a 15 hour long National BOD meeting defending that position... we won. It is likely that that victory has saved several lives in the ensuing 35 ± years.
A 5~6-point harness can be installed without ANY mods to most cars... SNAP OUT OF IT!!! This is a NO BRAINER!
If you are the "Responsible Party" in organizing any event you don't want to be the one making that phone call to the next of kin explaining that your loose rules (made in the name of attracting more entrants) have cost a life. THIS IS A STUPID DEBATE!!!
And this, dispute over roll bars and safety, is exactly why ARA withdrew and formed their own organization among other things. Nothing has changed over 20 years, the same discussions, same fights, same issues, etc.

AROSC, or a specific portion of it, is unhappy with AROC rules and how they dictate that track events must be run based on the insurance carrier that they have selected as a non-profit corporation that umbrellas the chapters.

I don't know the answers and am not about to try and solve them, but I see more splits and disagreements in the future over the same issues that have not been satisfactorily resolved or addressed.

Remember it takes members to race; without members to race rules aren't important, so I would suggest trying to seek resolution to the issues so that you do have members to race, both on a local and national level.
 

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Discussion Starter #79
Hey guys,

At the 10-12-08 Race at WSIR I had an issue with at least one person pointing to the left to indicate that they are pitting.

I confused it for a point by and got a surprise!

Do we have a standard way of signaling intention to pit, like the fist in the air like many other organizations?

It might be worth a brief mention in the drivers meeting at a place like WSIR...
We don't require "point-by's" and "pit-in" hand signals in either TT or race groups. Hand signals are a courtesy we like to see our drivers extend but they are not a requirement. TT drivers are required to pass cleanly and safely on the left on designated straights; race drivers are required to pass cleanly and safely wherever they elect to do it. Every organization I've encountered seems to do things a bit differently. This is partly why driver's meetings are so important. We need everyone to know the set of rules we are operating under.

In our drivers meetings we try to make it very clear that it is the responsibility of the overtaking driver to make a clean, safe pass. In the situation you describe, especially in race group where drivers are dealing with arm restraints and/or window nets, it's easy to visualize how an arm out the window might be confusing and it's exactly this kind of confusing situation we are trying to avoid. So, when you run with AROSC, whether a driver in front of you provides no hand signal, a raised finger or a clenched fist, your responsibility is the same, as an overtaking driver, you must make a clean, safe pass. If you're not sure you can do that, you should wait until you can.

As far as T9 at WSIR goes, I'd say the chances are very good that a driver intends to pit if he/she has an arm out the window in any part of the turn. T9 is an intense turn where drivers usually keep both hands on the wheel if they are doing anything other than slowing to get into the pits. Still, there's no guarantee of this so it's important to drive accordingly.
 

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Discussion Starter #80
And this, dispute over roll bars and safety, is exactly why ARA withdrew and formed their own organization among other things. Nothing has changed over 20 years, the same discussions, same fights, same issues, etc.

AROSC, or a specific portion of it, is unhappy with AROC rules and how they dictate that track events must be run based on the insurance carrier that they have selected as a non-profit corporation that umbrellas the chapters.

I don't know the answers and am not about to try and solve them, but I see more splits and disagreements in the future over the same issues that have not been satisfactorily resolved or addressed.

Remember it takes members to race; without members to race rules aren't important, so I would suggest trying to seek resolution to the issues so that you do have members to race, both on a local and national level.
I have two comments:

First, I'm not sure why you think AROSC is unhappy with AROC rules. We, AROSC, run our track events without any interference from AROC and without being subjected to any constraints by the AROC insurance carrier. We run our track events according to our own rules and we independently procure insurance to cover those events. Consequently, there is no reason for us to have a problem with AROC rules.

Second, this thread was initiated for the sole purpose of addressing AROSC Time Trial and Race Safety issues. This is a very important topic and I think it is reasonable to expect people to post here accordingly. I appreciate your interest in safety but if you want to discuss club politics, this thread would be better served if you would find in a more appropriate thread for that discussion. If you can't find one that fits your needs, you can always start one yourself.
 
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