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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,

I learned from the catalogs that there were 3 Alfa numbers for the enameled 1900 grill heart badges during the years, how would they be different ?
All 1900 cars would have # 2800.45000 while for the 1900CSS there was firstly the # 1488.38703 in the 1957 catalog, that # was also used on the early Giuliettas, and finally there was the # 2800.45002 in the 1960 catalog.
Is there someone that could explaine the differences between those badges ?
The picture here is from an original badge that I could borrow from an old Giulietta friend , it has studs at the rear, modern repros have pins.
Would that maybe be one of the differences?
But what could be the difference between the two types 1900CSS badges ?
Pictures of original badges would be fantastic and of course mostly appreciated for this little research.
If you have some pictures to share here, please specify the 1900 type and year.

One last question about the very early 1900 cars: were there any cars with the red 6C 2500 badge ?
Thanks.

Thierry

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Hi Thierry,

Your questions are interesting ones. I've been consulting some of the books in my library trying to get some answers. I haven't found anything definitive just yet, but my belief is that the grill badges of all 1900s, whether those produced by Alfa, or those from various carrozzeria, followed the progression of badges that Alfa was using. I believe that the red badge was the badge used on the pre-war Alfas, and that some of the very early 1900s (Series I 1900Cs) may have had that badge, but I'm not certain. If I have, it contradicts the following information. Volume 1 (1910-1962) of D'Amico and Tabucchi's "Alfa Romeo Production Cars" has four pages devoted to the evolution of the Alfa Romeo badge, as illustrated below.

As the text describes, there was a new badge developed in 1950, for the 1900, and that this badge would endure until 1960. Of course that decade encompasses the entire production life of the 1900 model, so theoretically all 1900s had the same badge, and it appears to be the one you have shared.

IMG_5699 by tjveloce, on Flickr

I'll look around to see if I see any photos of 1900s with the badge with the red background and will certainly share if I do. At the back of the mind I feel like I've seen a few, but I could be wrong, or the car in question may just have the wrong badge on it. The red badge, the subsequent "1900 badge" did share the same diameter of 54mm (according to D'Amico and Tabucchi) so it is possible that they could have been interchanged by an owner or shop.

-tj
 

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The 1900 parts catalog Pub. 596 (4-1960) lists the front badge as being a 2-piece part, consisting of the badge 2800.45002 and a "Molletta fisaggio stemma" with part number 1488.38005 (spring clip, same as on early Giulietta).

Badge #2800.45002 is also used on 102 cars (see this thread).

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Discussion Starter #4
Hi all,

tj,

I havn't the D'Amico and Tabucchi' book, sorry.

I measured the red 6 C 2500 badge, it is also 54 mm indeed and the distance between the studs on both badges (red and enameled) is the same. This distance would be 30-31 mm centre to centre.
( ... the distance between the pins of the enameled repros is about 27 mm centre to centre, they fit the Giulietta front grill)
tj,
would you have easily access to a 1900 heart for measuring the distance centre to centre between the holes for fixing the badge on that heart ? Thanks in advance.

For the 1900 badge history, we still don't know what's the difference between the # 2800.45000 and the # 1488.38703 badge on the 1900 cars. In my opinion this would be in the fixing methode: studs + nuts or pins + clipses.


Ruedi,

The number 12 on page 395 of your copy of the 1900 catalog from 4/1960 was different in the earlier catalog from 9/57, another enigme. see nr 12 on my picture please.
The front badge of most of the 1900 cars, # 2800.45000, is a one parts badge, can we agree that it would have therefor studs and nuts instead of the 2800.45002 + 1488.38005 combination?

This search is now about the question whether the 2800.45002 badge was plastic or enameled. Plastic according to the notes from Ruedi .
This would imply that the 2000 berlina and spider 102 series from at least late 1960 would have received a plastic badge. Yes ?

Why would Alfa make two plastic badges in the same period (1959/1960) and mount them on different cars? What would than be the difference between that 2800.45002 badge and the 101.00.59.052.00 badge ?
For more details about the 101.00.59.052.00, see also in the Giulietta section thread:

1600 Spider front grille badge question



Do we agree that all the 1900 cars, especially the 1900CSS cars, had enameled badges untill the end of the construction ?
I ask this as the ultimate reference in the 1900 catalog (4/1960) for the front badge of the 1900CSS is the 2800.45002.( see Ruedi's picture p 395 nr 12)
Of course that catalog was released after the last 1900 car was already made. So maybe Alfa put that number in that late 1900 catalog because it was that part (number) that was used meanwhile on the successor, the 102 car.

Thanks,
with your help we can complete further the reconstruction of the history of the badges, including for the Giuliettas .
Every extra information is welcome, especially pictures of the real stuff on the cars.

Could I ask another question to everyone and thanks of course for replying with some extra info.
What was the distance between the two studs ( centre to centre) of the early badges for all 1900 cars except the 1900 CSS? Was this 31 mm ?

Please, don't worry, once we have gathered all obtainable information, I'll send it to Carl, that is the man to make very comprehensive listings, as we all know.

Rgds
Thierry


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Edit: Oops -- I realized after posting that this thread would be better for posting info about 102 Sprint front badges (and keep this thread focused on 1900).
 

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Thierry,

Here's a photo of the holes in my grill. It was obviously hard to get my micrometer visually centered in the holes, but my reading of 28.18mm suggests that the 27mm for the Giulietta badge will fit.

Hope this helps.

-tj

1621712


Hi all,

tj,

I havn't the D'Amico and Tabucchi' book, sorry.

I measured the red 6 C 2500 badge, it is also 54 mm indeed and the distance between the studs on both badges (red and enameled) is the same. This distance would be 30-31 mm centre to centre.
( ... the distance between the pins of the enameled repros is about 27 mm centre to centre, they fit the Giulietta front grill)
tj,
would you have easily access to a 1900 heart for measuring the distance centre to centre between the holes for fixing the badge on that heart ? Thanks in advance.

For the 1900 badge history, we still don't know what's the difference between the # 2800.45000 and the # 1488.38703 badge on the 1900 cars. In my opinion this would be in the fixing methode: studs + nuts or pins + clipses.
 

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Then again, 28.18 mm is pretty close to 1-1/8" (28.575 mm). Maybe some badges had a metric base, while others were imperial?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Hi tj, Ruedi, Carl, Andy and all,



The 28,18 mm measurement is at least much closer to the 27 mm than to the 31 mm that was measured yesterday by a friend of mine on a 1900 grill ( no CSS). He also told me, and I checked it now in the catalogs , that the 1900 CSS received the first series Giulietta grill (# 1413.38011) combined with the # 1488.38.703 badge . This explained a lot to me, maybe this was already common knowledge by 1900 owners of course.

So, thanks to all your help, I would conclude that the ‘intro’ in post # 1 about what I found in the different 1900 catalogs would make sence, making the listing in the 1900 catalogs accurate:

All 1900 cars except of the 1900 CSS received the # 2800.45000 badge and the 1900 CSS received the # 1488.38.703 badge.

A little reserve has to be made for 1900 fuoriserie cars, special bodied cars etcetera, that are not in the catalogs and therefor that I can’t check on what particular grill / badge they had.



The questions so far were, why two badges and therefor what were the main differences between them ?

This is what I know now:

  • The # 2800.45000 badge had studs and nuts and the distance between the studs was about 31 mm. ( Good to know is that this badge is also to be found on the Giulietta spider trunk lid lock, on the dashboard of the early furgone F12, and on the grill of the early 1900 Matta)
  • The # 1488.38.703 badge had pins and clipses and the distance between the pins was about 27 mm. They were also found on the 750 Giuliettas . ( Both the 27 mm and 31 mm were measured centre to centre, so a minimal difference is always possible.
  • Due to the periode they appeared, both badges were cloisonné ( enameled)

To the question why two different badges:

this would simply be the consequence of decisions made on the drawing board where the 1900 CSS would receive the Giulietta grill + badge.



About the third Alfa number (# 2800.45002) that was in the 4/1960 catalog of the 1900, btw a catalog that was published after the last 1900 was assembled yet:

Probably, and this is my personal idea, Alfa did list this number in that late 1900 catalog as this was the current number for the badges that were used on the 102 cars which was the successor for the 1900 model. ( the badge number 2800.45002 is in the 102 model catalog 728 from 11/1960.)



Because the number for the 1900 CSS grill was never changed , we could conclude that the

# 2800.45002 badge had also the 27 mm distance between the pins.



A new question :

Why did Alfa changed the enameled # 1488.38.703 badge for 2 new badges in the 1960-1961 period (the # 2800.45002 and # 101.00.59.052.00) and why were they mounted on 2 different groups of cars ?

We know that after the 1900, al grills had holes on the 27 mm distance and all front badges had pins and clipses.

We also know that both badges were of the same 27 mm distance type, so in my opinion this leaves only the possibility of a difference in the material they were made of.

So is it correct to think that it would be unlikely that they were both in plastic or both enameled . Any other toughts or testimonies on this ?

If this is correct, which badge was in plastic?

Or were there other differences between both badges that I don’t see ?

Thanks for sharing your ideas and corrections, any further input is mostly appreciated.



Thanks also Andy for sharing the picture, according to what I learned, this is the first series Giulietta heart with the # 1488.38.703 badge.

Rgds,

Thierry
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Hi Andy,
I was wondering whether it could be possible to check if the badge on your picture has studs and nuts or pins and clipses ?

Thanks,

Thierry
 

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The 28,18 mm measurement is at least much closer to the 27 mm than to the 31 mm that was measured yesterday
FWIW: 31 mm = 1.22" --> pretty close to 1-1/4" (1.25")
 

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Thierry,

Your observations regarding the Giulietta 750 Spider are correct, the studs are for the trunk lock whereas the pins are for the front grill. The studs are the rarer ones.

I have taekn phoos from my partsbooks, the Giulietta book is the blue 1955 partsbook and the Italian 102 (2000) is from 1958, the US version is from1960.

I have the older badge as well, still with the knots instaead of the simplified bar. The bar is most often in gold, but I have one in white as well.

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I have to look for my 1900 partsbooks, to see which date they have. The 2000 and 750, I regularly use for my cars and have them by hand. The 1900 is only for references, hence I need to look for them. First two pics are still from the 1958 book ( the emblem is # 8), the rest of the 102 series is from 1960 US partsbook.
The giulietta info is all 1955 750 partsbook.
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@alfa_corsa

From what I have seen, I do not think that there were any early 1900s with the red alloy badge. In contrary, we had some late production 6C 2500s in the workshop which already had an enamel badge, same as on the 1900. #915871, the second to last PF convertible i.e. came as a very original project and had the enamel badge on it. Could have been fitted at a later point of course, but looked original. If you look into the Anselmi book, it also seems that many older 6Cs with special bodywork had enamel badges (possibly at least for the press picture?). I would assume, that as soon as the new badge was available, Alfa would have fitted it to every new car, and this would refer both to the new 1900 and also to 6Cs which were registered 1950 onwards.
 

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Hello Alfred!

I agree with your statement that no "early 1900s were fitted with the red alloy badge but for one singular exception. There is, in D'Amico and Tabucchi, a photo of a prototype 1900, which the caption describes as very similar to the 6c Frescia d'oro, and it appears to have the red alloy badge on it. It's hard to know for sure, but regardless, I support your statement that 1900s would have had the later "cloisonne" style badge.

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-tj




@alfa_corsa

From what I have seen, I do not think that there were any early 1900s with the red alloy badge. In contrary, we had some late production 6C 2500s in the workshop which already had an enamel badge, same as on the 1900. #915871, the second to last PF convertible i.e. came as a very original project and had the enamel badge on it. Could have been fitted at a later point of course, but looked original. If you look into the Anselmi book, it also seems that many older 6Cs with special bodywork had enamel badges (possibly at least for the press picture?). I would assume, that as soon as the new badge was available, Alfa would have fitted it to every new car, and this would refer both to the new 1900 and also to 6Cs which were registered 1950 onwards.
 

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Hi Andy,
I was wondering whether it could be possible to check if the badge on your picture has studs and nuts or pins and clipses ?
Thanks,Thierry
Hi Thierry

the badge has pins and clipses!
I bought it from OMEA Milano, which i supose, it was the original supplier for the emaild badges to Alfa. They also can supply the original CarrozzTouring for our 1900 Tipo IV.

Andy
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Wow, great input, thanks all !

Hi Andy,
Could you precise what is the difference between the pictures on post 9 and 10 please, are they from the same car ? I see lot of differences.
Pins and clipses would be matching perfectly with the # 1488.38.703 badge.

Hi 58_spyder,

Nice collection of books and badges.
Have you ever seen the colour of the badges that I show in this post ?


Hi Alfred and tj,

At least it was possible to mount them on the 1900 grill as the red badge had also the 31 mm distance between the studs.

Rgds,

Thierry

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Wow, great input, thanks all !
Hi Andy,
Could you precise what is the difference between the pictures on post 9 and 10 please, are they from the same car ? I see lot of differences.
Pins and clipses would be matching perfectly with the # 1488.38.703 badge.
Hi Thierry

Picture on post 9 is from an old, very original car. Here some pictures of the original car. Alfa 1900C, 10577
Picture on post 10 is from my car with the new badge from OMEA.

Andy
 
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