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Anyone knowing about the story of the GTA 1600 #AR613102 ?
Thanks !
Thanks !
Ar613102
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Hi and welcome to the Alfa BB.
Perhaps you should introduce your self and let us know what your interest is in Alfas and GTA 613102 in particular. Then you are more likely to get a response to your question.
Regards
Ken
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Hello,
I like the GTA, and would like one day to have one. No hurry for that, so I start to learn about this model, identify the potential interesting chassis number: an Autodelta car is more interesting than a Stradale, and I try to find out what are the car potetially for sale, or not yet for sale but very nice history, in order to look after them and be ready when they will come to the market.
I have bought the GTA book of Tabucchi today, and see the cars offered on anamera etc.
Thanks for your help
Best regards
I like the GTA, and would like one day to have one. No hurry for that, so I start to learn about this model, identify the potential interesting chassis number: an Autodelta car is more interesting than a Stradale, and I try to find out what are the car potetially for sale, or not yet for sale but very nice history, in order to look after them and be ready when they will come to the market.
I have bought the GTA book of Tabucchi today, and see the cars offered on anamera etc.
Thanks for your help
Best regards
Joined
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1,905 Posts
Interest in GTA
Thank you for your answer.
Reading the book "Alfa Romeo GTA" by Tabucchi is a good start. Other interesting books are "Alleggerita" by Tony Adriaensens (very expensive), "Alfa Romeo Coupé GT & GTA" by John Tipler (quite affordable) and "Giulia GT coupé Bertone" by Julien Lombard (also affordable). This list is not complete. Reading the relevant threads here on alfabb will also be helpfull.
As Ken already asked; what is your specific interest in GTA 1600 #AR613102?
Ciao, Olaf
Dear SGA2000GTV,
Thank you for your answer.
Reading the book "Alfa Romeo GTA" by Tabucchi is a good start. Other interesting books are "Alleggerita" by Tony Adriaensens (very expensive), "Alfa Romeo Coupé GT & GTA" by John Tipler (quite affordable) and "Giulia GT coupé Bertone" by Julien Lombard (also affordable). This list is not complete. Reading the relevant threads here on alfabb will also be helpfull.
As Ken already asked; what is your specific interest in GTA 1600 #AR613102?
Ciao, Olaf
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I simply try to identify the potential GTA to be targeted for a purchase for me:so 613011, '039, '898, '910,'934 and '102 are cars Autodelta, with then nice race history.
I don't know if these cars are still alive, if they had bad crash, or wrong restoration etc but I think these are potentially the Top GTA to be owned one day ?
Am I wrong ?
So I started to search about '102 because I have read it has been your car, that's all.
As there are lots of replica of GTA, I prefer to get info from owner, or pre owners etc rather than "dealers" etc, and as you had this car I wondered to get from you accurate info. But it seems you don't want to share this. No problem.
I did not asked you the name of the present owner, I just want to know the history of the car from it birth in Arese up to your ownership.
I search the same info for the other chassis number here above.
Thanks in any case.
I don't know if these cars are still alive, if they had bad crash, or wrong restoration etc but I think these are potentially the Top GTA to be owned one day ?
Am I wrong ?
So I started to search about '102 because I have read it has been your car, that's all.
As there are lots of replica of GTA, I prefer to get info from owner, or pre owners etc rather than "dealers" etc, and as you had this car I wondered to get from you accurate info. But it seems you don't want to share this. No problem.
I did not asked you the name of the present owner, I just want to know the history of the car from it birth in Arese up to your ownership.
I search the same info for the other chassis number here above.
Thanks in any case.
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5,503 Posts
Hello SGA,
If you are serious in finding an important GTA to purchase then you are right to be careful and do your research. It is hard to tell a cars race history by pictures alone.
Two more things that can happen to an important race GTA that you did not mention are metal fatigue and conversion to later structural and body configurations when it is raced on after the race years of interest. (into the late 1970's and beyond). The second often is found in the form of cutting back the fenders and installing plastic GTAj wide body and extending the roll cage to the point of the car having a tube frame. BTW if a GTA corsa had an important race history it likely had some race course accidents.
One could easily pay too high a price for an important GTA that then needs a costly restoration to make it right and then it having a value beyond the market. That being said sometimes being the steward of an important car and it's associated costs is priceless.
I am curious how you developed your list (613011, '039, '898, '910,'934 and '102). The first edition of Tabucchi has a much longer list of Autodelta GTAs and there are other known Autodelta GTAs that do not make that list.
You will find this Alfa BB full of the best GTA information but here to can be found errors that may or may not be corrected in later posts some times years later as more info comes to light. As a new reader with new eyes I invite you to bring any errors you may find forward.
Regards
Ken
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Am I a cynical old bastard for thinking that when someone anonymous starts asking questions about specific cars that their intentions are questionable ?
Explanation given by the anonymous gentleman did little to convince me otherwise.
Explanation given by the anonymous gentleman did little to convince me otherwise.
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History of #613102
After checking around I can confirm that the same question concerning the history of #613102 has been asked on several different forums in the last couple of days. Same MO. I sent SGA2000GTV a PM asking what his specific interest in #613201 is, but he did not reply. So caution is adviced here.
Ciao, Olaf
Hello GTA246GT and others,
After checking around I can confirm that the same question concerning the history of #613102 has been asked on several different forums in the last couple of days. Same MO. I sent SGA2000GTV a PM asking what his specific interest in #613201 is, but he did not reply. So caution is adviced here.
Ciao, Olaf
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779 Posts
613102
Hallo Olaf and Ken and the others,
I am alright with you concerning the doubtable answers about this car??? And who is SGA2000GTV , he is here without adress etc nor country??? attention please.
Also GTA 246GT ? Why he dont tell us the whole story about the car? All very mystic?
That was the reason, i dont gave my chassisnumbers to Adriansen! Equal they are not listened now, the Allegeritta book is no works document, many numbers of cars i know ,are not mentioned.
Uli
Hallo Olaf and Ken and the others,
I am alright with you concerning the doubtable answers about this car??? And who is SGA2000GTV , he is here without adress etc nor country??? attention please.
Also GTA 246GT ? Why he dont tell us the whole story about the car? All very mystic?
That was the reason, i dont gave my chassisnumbers to Adriansen! Equal they are not listened now, the Allegeritta book is no works document, many numbers of cars i know ,are not mentioned.
Uli
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421 Posts
Its absolutly your thing to give out the s/n or not - but one stupid question just for me to understand: what Harm can Be done by knowing the number?
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Chassisnumbers
Thank you for asking that question. In my opinion, it is alright to give the chassisnumbers of the cars you own or used to own to people who tell you what they are going to do with the information. But in case of cars like the the prewar Alfa's and the postwar special cars like a 6C2500, 1900 SSZ, Giulietta SZ, Giulia TZ, Giulia Sprint GTA, GTA 1300 junior and GTAm, there is a risk.
Remember the book that Marcello Minerbi wrote on the TZ in 1985? It contained a record of the known and unknown history of TZ chassisnumbers. Great for people who make checking histories of certain cars their hobby, just like me. But soon after, replica TZ's started to appear with chassisnumbers of cars of which the history was unknown or incomplete. That is the reason why, out of approx. 117 TZ's, 150 or more survive.
More and more replica GTA´s are appearing on the surface of the earth. Checking what chassisnumbers have an unknown or incomplete history or what cars have been destroyed creates the opportunity to give your replica GTA a specific chassisnumber and thus make it a "real" one. Consequences in terms of prices asked for a replica or a "real" car are clear.
Ciao, Olaf
Hello Don,
Thank you for asking that question. In my opinion, it is alright to give the chassisnumbers of the cars you own or used to own to people who tell you what they are going to do with the information. But in case of cars like the the prewar Alfa's and the postwar special cars like a 6C2500, 1900 SSZ, Giulietta SZ, Giulia TZ, Giulia Sprint GTA, GTA 1300 junior and GTAm, there is a risk.
Remember the book that Marcello Minerbi wrote on the TZ in 1985? It contained a record of the known and unknown history of TZ chassisnumbers. Great for people who make checking histories of certain cars their hobby, just like me. But soon after, replica TZ's started to appear with chassisnumbers of cars of which the history was unknown or incomplete. That is the reason why, out of approx. 117 TZ's, 150 or more survive.
More and more replica GTA´s are appearing on the surface of the earth. Checking what chassisnumbers have an unknown or incomplete history or what cars have been destroyed creates the opportunity to give your replica GTA a specific chassisnumber and thus make it a "real" one. Consequences in terms of prices asked for a replica or a "real" car are clear.
Ciao, Olaf
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421 Posts
Thank you, that makes sense to me. On the other side - if your No. is in a book together with the known historie, it could help to prevent a replica with your s/n.
Just for curiousity: Adriansens has his list of numbers from owners and clubs. In his book my s/n isn't included. But from which source has Tabucchi his list for the Leggera book, as there is my s/n included, but without having ever contacted the previous owner.
Just for curiousity: Adriansens has his list of numbers from owners and clubs. In his book my s/n isn't included. But from which source has Tabucchi his list for the Leggera book, as there is my s/n included, but without having ever contacted the previous owner.
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History and chassisnumbers of GTA's
The problem with a lot of these cars is that the history isn´t complete or the car has been destroyed by corrosion, fire, a crash or otherwise without being documented properly. Gaps in the history will make it possible to create a replica that was "unearthed" or a "barnfind" in the period that isn´t covered or properly documented. Off course these "barnfinds" had to be restored which will explain why the finished car is shown years later ........
That is the way it is done with the TZ and many other interesting and valuable Alfa´s and other cars. Uncovering these scams could be difficult and timeconsuming. And if there is a dispute about a certain chassisnumber because there is more than one car, it can put of potential buyers with consequences for the value of the car.
Now about the chassisnumbers in `Alleggerita` by Adiaensens, published in 1994 and `Alfa Romeo GTA´ (second edition from 2009 is called "Alfa Romeo GTA, leggera e vincente") by Tabucchi published in 1994.
The chassisnumbers can be found in the records of Alfa Romeo. I do not know if Tony Adriaensens had access to those files at the time. It looks like Tabucchi (and d' Amico) did and they used them in their second edition. In the first edition, chassisnumbers of the GTAm were mentioned, in the second edition I can't find them.
Ciao! Olaf
Hello Marcel,
The problem with a lot of these cars is that the history isn´t complete or the car has been destroyed by corrosion, fire, a crash or otherwise without being documented properly. Gaps in the history will make it possible to create a replica that was "unearthed" or a "barnfind" in the period that isn´t covered or properly documented. Off course these "barnfinds" had to be restored which will explain why the finished car is shown years later ........
That is the way it is done with the TZ and many other interesting and valuable Alfa´s and other cars. Uncovering these scams could be difficult and timeconsuming. And if there is a dispute about a certain chassisnumber because there is more than one car, it can put of potential buyers with consequences for the value of the car.
Now about the chassisnumbers in `Alleggerita` by Adiaensens, published in 1994 and `Alfa Romeo GTA´ (second edition from 2009 is called "Alfa Romeo GTA, leggera e vincente") by Tabucchi published in 1994.
The chassisnumbers can be found in the records of Alfa Romeo. I do not know if Tony Adriaensens had access to those files at the time. It looks like Tabucchi (and d' Amico) did and they used them in their second edition. In the first edition, chassisnumbers of the GTAm were mentioned, in the second edition I can't find them.
Ciao! Olaf
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It was my understanding that Adriaensen was not allowed to see info from the Alfa Archives. He gathered most or all of his data from personal contact in Europe and forms sent out to owners and returned to him. We sent a form about our car, but didn't know all the history in 1993, when he was collecting the data. Apparently Tabucchi got access to the actual Alfa Archives. All the serial numbers and build years could only have come from the Museum archives.
Keith
Alfas Unlimited
Keith
Alfas Unlimited
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Also with GTAm
That is also the case with the GTAm chassisnumbers. Tabucchi in his first edition of "Alfa Romeo GTA" only mentioned the 105.51 1750 GTV's that went to Autodelta straight away to be converted to GTAm. That is, plus the Jolly Club GTAm, the car for Luigi Cecchini and two 105.44 cars of which one was for Monzeglio Squadra Corse. He could have known this info from the records at Alfa Romeo where Autodelta and the others are mentioned in the specific files. Adriaensens mentioned different chassisnumbers although some of them overlap with Tabucchi.
Ciao! Olaf
Dear Keith and Marcel
That is also the case with the GTAm chassisnumbers. Tabucchi in his first edition of "Alfa Romeo GTA" only mentioned the 105.51 1750 GTV's that went to Autodelta straight away to be converted to GTAm. That is, plus the Jolly Club GTAm, the car for Luigi Cecchini and two 105.44 cars of which one was for Monzeglio Squadra Corse. He could have known this info from the records at Alfa Romeo where Autodelta and the others are mentioned in the specific files. Adriaensens mentioned different chassisnumbers although some of them overlap with Tabucchi.
Ciao! Olaf
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