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PSk, though considering your splendid knowledge about RHD pedal disposal (I got finally the opportunity to learn something about that), before you qualify someone as idiot, it is good advice to inform yourself on topic in discussion (words are retaliatory sometimes). Premise. AR752654 was restored in conformity with ‘CSAI Apendix J Autostoriche, Prescrizioni e Norme’. There is nothing on that car that would be contrary to the regulations or building standards of the period model and its components. (see page 121 of the Apendix J). The reasons for the preference of LHD pedal system over RHD one on the RHD cars was disputed (Zeccoli) and you can also find out reasons reading (in English) nice Gary Sheehan’s text about ex Horst Kwech RHD GTA. So, the choice was legitim and it was done having in mind riding comfort. Looking with attention, the photo will reveal to you some patches, but also the integrity of 105.04.50.037.00 panel. Here are photos of ‘true’ RHD pedal system and one obtained on AR752654, and you should understand ‘why’ of similar change. Perhaps you have much more severe standards in Tauranga for car restoration, but as I have already declared, here in Italy, we have what we have, and must live with it.
 

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It is possible that this replica was made before the invention of the internet and therefore finding information about LHD versus RHD was difficult. Point taken.

I honestly though did not think it would even be physically possible to install the LHD pedal box casting on the right side, with chassis rails, etc. in the way. I can see now that, yet again, I am wrong. Fascinating.

Pete
Time for me to take a break from Alfabb :).
 

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It is possible that this replica was made before the invention of the internet and therefore finding information about LHD versus RHD was difficult. Point taken.

I honestly though did not think it would even be physically possible to install the LHD pedal box casting on the right side, with chassis rails, etc. in the way. I can see now that, yet again, I am wrong. Fascinating.

Pete
Time for me to take a break from Alfabb :).
Pete. I do not think you are wrong. These guys were trying to fake a GTA and for what ever reason settled on an unbuilt number, unlike the 3 other RHD fakes I know of which faked built numbers so now there are 2 of each number.

If that trunk gutter stamping shown (10504/A) is what is actually on the fake then where did it come from. Was that the starting point? A single legitimate RHD GTA part.

It's too bad that this good and necessary discussion in corrupting and hijacking the thread about a legitimate RHD GTA 752691. Can a moderator move the posts to a thread about 752654. BTW I take responsibility for causing the hijacking.

Regards

Ken
 

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Interesting Thread. Reads like a crime story. :surprise:

I found some pictures, showing how a "real" RHD looks like ;-)





found here:

https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gt-1963-1977/178564-1966-sprint-gt-veloce-rebuild-rhd-warning-many-images-21.html

and also some nice restoration pictures of RHD by Alfaholics:
https://www.alfaholics.com/our-cars/completed-builds/1965-giulia-gtc-restoration-2/shell-painted-ready-assemble/
Yes, this is the true RHD pedal construction chosen by Alfa for the application. It is FAR SUPERIOR for driving & racing especially, because it spaces the pedals evenly each side of the steering center, so drivers legs are not skewed across toward the trans tunnel. The other important thing is it leaves plenty of space for a left footrest for the driver when cornering & factory fitted footrests were standard production items on many models.
Choosing to fit a LHD assembly on RH side is most likely only ease to obtain it, not correct or sensible.
Vince.
 

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“…There were a couple of things I noticed straight away. The first thing was the throttle pedal. It was sitting about 3" above the brake pedal. That's without pushing on the brake pedal. The issue is that the throttle sits right above the right front tire wheel well and cannot be located in line with the clutch and brake pedals. For the first time in my life I contemplated the feasibility of downshifting and blipping the throttle with my shin.
…The brake and clutch pedals were then too close, so I had to compromise between leg comfort and arm comfort. The steering wheel was a little further away than I would have liked and the brake and clutch pedals were a little too close for me. Forget the throttle. If there is an Achilles heel with this car, it is its current throttle pedal position. No, seriously, my Achilles tendon is killing me. I have never had the opportunity to torture myself for so long doing something I loved. With my foot over the throttle pedal but not pushing down, I had to maneuver my knee to the right so as not to bang into the steering wheel. My knee was bent at 90 degrees and my ankle at an angle even more acute than 90 degrees at zero throttle. I think that might be why these cars are so much fun to drive. It is nearly physically impossible to stay off throttle! I wish I had a video camera inside the car. I swear I must have looked like I was pumping a drum kit bass pedal while working the throttle…”
Gary Sheehan

T. C’era poi, la questione del bilanciamento longitudinale. Qualcuno sosteneva che la batteria, il serbatoio ed il pilota, nella parte sinistra della vettura creavano scompenso nella distribuzione del peso lungo l’asse. Un’automobile dove si alleggeriva proprio tutto, poteva risentire effetti di questa circostanza?
Z. “Bah! Io non ho mai notato particolari effetti sulle GTA provate. Da quel punto di vista, le vetture con volante a destra, sarebbero avvantaggiate, visto che nel caso la distribuzione dei pesi era più ‘logica’. Ma le GTA si comportavano ugualmente bene in tutte le versioni, senza una differenza da notare. Era piuttosto la disposizione dei pedali nella versione con la guida a destra, la soluzione che destava qualche problema. Il pedale dell’acceleratore, attaccato alla curvatura del pozzo della ruota anteriore destra, sporgeva di un 5-6 cm sopra il pedale del freno, e non c’era il modo di livellarle per un corretto uso del freno e l’acceleratore nello stesso momento. Per la verità, il modo c’era, ma richiedeva una posizione del piede e della gamba anomali. Il problema non esisteva nell’uso quotidiano sulla versione Stradale, ma si poneva in corsa. Qualcuno mi ha riferito delle pedali dell’acceleratore appositamente modificate… In ogni caso la pedaliera esisteva già, ereditata dalla GT, e sostituirla con quella della versione con il volante a sinistra sarebbe stato un intervento complesso e costoso. In risposta alla sua domanda le confermo che la versione con la guida a destra non si mostrava meglio bilanciata rispetto a versione con guida a sinistra. Era la GTA stessa che richiedeva una guida giudiziosa e rispetto di certi limiti…”
Teodoro Zeccoli
 

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Whatever your preference for pedals on right or left, is does not really matter in the case of this faking a car. A car whose chassis number is not factory listed but "overlooked" by the factory archives. A car that ARGTAReg's OWN POSTED photos clearly show a LHD firewall & repositioned LHD pedal opening, AND boot opener on incorrect side AND later rear wheel arch profile AND LHD cable grommet openings, AND GTV battery mount brace, AND GTV horn mounting....such an amazing series of coincidence on one car. All mistakes supposedly made by the factory putting so many wrong things on a RHD GTA?, and it is an "overlooked" car....truly amazing.
Vince.
 

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This is an interesting thread in that it brings a few topics together about what we today 53 years later consider an original car to be and what was considered an original car earlier say 20 or 30 or 40 years ago.
What have 'we' being discussing in this thread?
1. Looking at documents be they from primary or secondary sources
2. Reviewing when and by whom prior evaluations where carried out.
3. Looking at photos before and now
4. Listening to personal one off accounts

With so few RHD cars produced (some say ~50).
Trying to use a small sample size of one or two cars to define what the 50 cars (population) looked like 50 years ago may not have any scientific rigor.

So you would need to use many sources of information, including primary sources like FIA documents.

GTAs were homologated under FIA.
In FIA #625 GTA's evolved where homologation was granted even as late as July 1970.
FIA documents show details of the cars as presented by the factory, so technically the car/s did exist with modifications as presented in the FIA documents.

RHD GTAs did race in various parts of the world and a number were amongst those that raced up until 1972 in the Trans-Am series and some beyond, thus giving further opportunities to modify (non FIA) the cars.

One of the biggest problems facing owners of GTA cars probably is which 'racing version of the car' they will bring their car back to. Of course I don't expect all of them to bring their cars back to original FIA specifications, but if they did we could compared all the cars at once... see what I'm saying ... I think there will always be issues surrounding the RHD GTA's given their production number and varied uses world wide which has reduced their population.
So do we have 50 shades of RHD GTAs? maybe less!
Steve
 

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Whatever your preference for pedals on right or left, is does not really matter in the case of this faking a car. A car whose chassis number is not factory listed but "overlooked" by the factory archives. A car that ARGTAReg's OWN POSTED photos clearly show a LHD firewall & repositioned LHD pedal opening, AND boot opener on incorrect side AND later rear wheel arch profile AND LHD cable grommet openings, AND GTV battery mount brace, AND GTV horn mounting....such an amazing series of coincidence on one car. All mistakes supposedly made by the factory putting so many wrong things on a RHD GTA?, and it is an "overlooked" car....truly amazing.
Vince.
It is not clear to me what GTAs or GTs ARGTAReg is posting photos of. He doesn't really ID them. I think they are just confusing the issue. 752654 was not restored it was faked poorly, plain and simple. The serial number looks off. There are forensic methods to test for over stamping and and over welding. I doubt this 752654 would pass. I also think that as far AR GTAs, both RHD and LHD, we on this Alfa BB, owners, historians are the experts.

Ciao

Ken
 

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I also think that as far AR GTAs, both RHD and LHD, we on this Alfa BB, owners, historians are the experts.
Ciao
Ken
Hi Ken,
You have made three points. First the owners are the experts. Second the historians are the experts, we on Alfabb are the experts.
I don't agree with you for all three points
First, an owner only has one car to view and cannot make generalizations about the other cars, they can rebuild their car to original FIA specification at best to get to 'original'. Owners have vested interest in their cars as being original, or more original than the next GTA that pops up. I would place little value on Sharp's comments or any other owner's comments when they make comments on cars not their own, as I mentioned before using one car to make general comments on 50 cars may not have any scientific rigor.

Second, even though discovery story of a GTA (one car) are important for example 'John said he saw car A when white, here is a picture at race track C and then it was red at race track Y was it the same car? here is a picture? You can not rely on this alone. When a historian/anthropologist conducts an oral history investigation there is a set process. Say 20 or more people are interviewed about a car they saw race on the 16th June 1966 at race track C, this constitutes oral history, many sources. (Using an oral history report to complement his application probably would have reduced the number of years it took Sharp to get his car accepted as a GTAm built by Autodelta)

Thirdly some times individuals on Alfabb pop up and say I'm an expert or I've looked at factory records and you want too much information I have it I will not give it to you (interesting).
Even though new books on GTAs have appeared lately, I'm not sure how they collated evidence for the cars.

So when viewing factory records for a book or other reasons someone in your team needs to be accredited as a licensed translator for Italian text written 50 years ago so you can read and translate the documents to derive the meaning intended in 1966! An accredited translated document is a secondary document but with some confidence it's an accurate translation.

As I mentioned before there are about 50 shades of RHD GTAs or even less so there is no point in claiming all cars should be mint and to original FIA specs when in fact we all know some cars were campaigned to the point of destruction crashed, highly modified and even hacked up and some rebuilt later (It would not be the first time the front half of a car including the firewall and dash was grafted onto a different body shell that was hacked up/smashed or missing it's front) !

I think the Alfa Romeo community has a long way to go before we can claim we have Alfa Romeo experts for any particular model including GTAs.
At least we can debate the process here on Alfabb in an open forum (on how to improve).
Regards Steve
 

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While I agree any given car has a history which may involve repairs & replacement of parts, this is very different to what a model actually is or isn't.
Anyone can now buy a stepnose 'kit' from the UK to change a 2000GTV or similar to appear as an early stepnose. This does not 'make' the car a 1600 or 1300 stepnose. If you look back over the pressings, brackets, positions, shapes & methods of assembly on the shell, it it possible to reasonably determine what the car actually is, (or IS NOT) from those details.
So if somebody presents a car with claims to be 'A' & areas in the basic bones of it, front, center & rear all don't add up, then toss in RHD vs LHD, AND the chassis number is shown by the factory as not produced, then it is bound to raise questions. If however it was stated that a nice GTA replica was made from some original parts & a lot of time & skilled hard work, it would be applauded as a job well done. And it does look to be a very nice finished result that any of us would proudly have in our garage.
The difference is in the claim to authenticity of genuine factory-produced GTA origins & that is where the problem is.
Post-production FIA homologated additions or modifications are a different area. All cars left the end of the assembly line with a specificic build DNA for its particular model. As RHD GTAs were all produced over a very short period in early/mid '65 , they were not prone to extended production model specification changes.
Vince.
 

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“…There were a couple of things I noticed straight away. The first thing was the throttle pedal. It was sitting about 3" above the brake pedal. That's without pushing on the brake pedal. The issue is that the throttle sits right above the right front tire wheel well and cannot be located in line with the clutch and brake pedals. For the first time in my life I contemplated the feasibility of downshifting and blipping the throttle with my shin.
…The brake and clutch pedals were then too close, so I had to compromise between leg comfort and arm comfort. The steering wheel was a little further away than I would have liked and the brake and clutch pedals were a little too close for me. Forget the throttle. If there is an Achilles heel with this car, it is its current throttle pedal position. No, seriously, my Achilles tendon is killing me. I have never had the opportunity to torture myself for so long doing something I loved. With my foot over the throttle pedal but not pushing down, I had to maneuver my knee to the right so as not to bang into the steering wheel. My knee was bent at 90 degrees and my ankle at an angle even more acute than 90 degrees at zero throttle. I think that might be why these cars are so much fun to drive. It is nearly physically impossible to stay off throttle! I wish I had a video camera inside the car. I swear I must have looked like I was pumping a drum kit bass pedal while working the throttle…”
Gary Sheehan

T. C’era poi, la questione del bilanciamento longitudinale. Qualcuno sosteneva che la batteria, il serbatoio ed il pilota, nella parte sinistra della vettura creavano scompenso nella distribuzione del peso lungo l’asse. Un’automobile dove si alleggeriva proprio tutto, poteva risentire effetti di questa circostanza?
Z. “Bah! Io non ho mai notato particolari effetti sulle GTA provate. Da quel punto di vista, le vetture con volante a destra, sarebbero avvantaggiate, visto che nel caso la distribuzione dei pesi era più ‘logica’. Ma le GTA si comportavano ugualmente bene in tutte le versioni, senza una differenza da notare. Era piuttosto la disposizione dei pedali nella versione con la guida a destra, la soluzione che destava qualche problema. Il pedale dell’acceleratore, attaccato alla curvatura del pozzo della ruota anteriore destra, sporgeva di un 5-6 cm sopra il pedale del freno, e non c’era il modo di livellarle per un corretto uso del freno e l’acceleratore nello stesso momento. Per la verità, il modo c’era, ma richiedeva una posizione del piede e della gamba anomali. Il problema non esisteva nell’uso quotidiano sulla versione Stradale, ma si poneva in corsa. Qualcuno mi ha riferito delle pedali dell’acceleratore appositamente modificate… In ogni caso la pedaliera esisteva già, ereditata dalla GT, e sostituirla con quella della versione con il volante a sinistra sarebbe stato un intervento complesso e costoso. In risposta alla sua domanda le confermo che la versione con la guida a destra non si mostrava meglio bilanciata rispetto a versione con guida a sinistra. Era la GTA stessa che richiedeva una guida giudiziosa e rispetto di certi limiti…”
Teodoro Zeccoli
From Google translate

T. Then there was the issue of longitudinal balance. Someone claimed that the battery, the tank and the driver, on the left side of the car, created imbalance in the distribution of weight along the axis. Could a car where everything was lightened be affected by this circumstance?
Z. "Bah! I have never noticed particular effects on the tested GTAs. From that point of view, cars with a steering wheel on the right would have an advantage, given that in the case of weight distribution it was more 'logical'. But the GTAs performed equally well in all versions, with no difference to be noted. It was rather the arrangement of the pedals in the version with the right-hand drive, the solution that raised some problems. The accelerator pedal, attached to the curvature of the shaft of the front right wheel, protruded 5-6 cm above the brake pedal, and there was no way to level them for correct use of the brake and the accelerator in it moment. In truth, the way was, but it required an abnormal foot and leg position. The problem did not exist in daily use on the road version, but was running. Someone told me about the specially modified accelerator pedals ... In any case, the pedal board already existed, inherited from the GT, and replacing it with that of the version with the steering wheel on the left would have been a complex and expensive operation. In response to your question, I confirm that the right-hand drive version was not better balanced than the left-hand drive version. It was the GTA itself that required judicious guidance and respect for certain limits ... "
Teodoro Zeccoli
 
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