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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
This was one of two 2L GTV's entered by the Alfa Romeo factory Foley team entered in the Austrailan Touring Car Championship.

It would be neat to have more technical info on these two cars. Unfortunatly the magazine does not provide any mechanical info :(
Maybe V. Sharp can help us?
 

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This was one of two 2L GTV's entered by the Alfa Romeo factory Foley team entered in the Austrailan Touring Car Championship.

It would be neat to have more technical info on these two cars. Unfortunatly the magazine does not provide any mechanical info :(
Maybe V. Sharp can help us?
These cars were prepared to the local touring-car rules (gpC, 1972-1985).
They started life mostly as showroom 2000GTVs with various freedoms in the rules.
Body and trim had to be essentially stock, although a bit of "massaging" of the inner parts of the rear quarters was done to accomodate 8" wide rims.
Springs, dampers, anti-roll bars etc were free in diameter. Brakes had to be original diameter but vented discs and AP calipers were fitted at the front.
Engines ran larger Webers, but valves and ports had to be stock, cams free.
These rules led to the local manufacturers(GM, Ford, etc)producing limited numbers of 'sports variation' models, with big valve engines and all other manner of drivetrain and suspension 'options' fitted, which made it hard for imports to compete for outright places.
This Alfa Dealer team was all locally run, and had maybe five 2000GTVs pass through over a 2-3 year period as several were wrecked in crashes. Probably the most famous crash was ex-F1 driver Tim Schenken who end-over-ended multiple times at Bathurst when a front wheel broke! Marie-Claude Beaumont and Chritine Gibson went on to take class honors for the team.
I last rebuilt the engine and gearbox for the lead car in the picture about 15 years ago. The car is still about after sustaining some accident damage in Targa Tasmania and there is intention to restore it so I'm told.
Regards,
Vince.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Hi Vince,

That is fantastic info! I knew you would be the one to talk to. Thank you.

I see from the picture that these cars ran side dump GTA exhausts. Were they also running the GTA exhaust manifold? I assume they were or they did some custom bolt up work to the stock 2L stock manifold to get the side dump to bolt up?

Interesting the internals of the motors were essentilay stock, per class specs.

I know that even though class rules call for stock production motors, we have seen in the past mild tweaks by the teams back then, which were supposed to be stock (at least in the US in SCCA & in Europe in ETCC with ALFA Romeo Autodelta factory entered cars).

To your knowledge were the cams used really the euro stock Euro 10548 cams? (What cams are you using now in the car)?

Stock compression and and no head port work carried out? Hard to beleive! How about the cars mechanical configuration
now?

I have additional period pics of the car I will scan in for you:)






These cars were prepared to the local touring-car rules (gpC, 1972-1985).
They started life mostly as showroom 2000GTVs with various freedoms in the rules.
Body and trim had to be essentially stock, although a bit of "massaging" of the inner parts of the rear quarters was done to accomodate 8" wide rims.
Springs, dampers, anti-roll bars etc were free in diameter. Brakes had to be original diameter but vented discs and AP calipers were fitted at the front.
Engines ran larger Webers, but valves and ports had to be stock, cams free.
These rules led to the local manufacturers(GM, Ford, etc)producing limited numbers of 'sports variation' models, with big valve engines and all other manner of drivetrain and suspension 'options' fitted, which made it hard for imports to compete for outright places.
This Alfa Dealer team was all locally run, and had maybe five 2000GTVs pass through over a 2-3 year period as several were wrecked in crashes. Probably the most famous crash was ex-F1 driver Tim Schenken who end-over-ended multiple times at Bathurst when a front wheel broke! Marie-Claude Beaumont and Chritine Gibson went on to take class honors for the team.
I last rebuilt the engine and gearbox for the lead car in the picture about 15 years ago. The car is still about after sustaining some accident damage in Targa Tasmania and there is intention to restore it so I'm told.
Regards,
Vince.
 

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I believe the exhaust would have been a locally fabricated racing exhaust, it looks quite different to a GTA/GTAm exhaust.
The Group C rules of the time allowed compression increase, bigger cams etc, but you were stuck with stock valves and ports, so it would have been an interesting exercise to extract maximum useable power when restricted by the ports and intake manifold being stock.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Hi there,

That is interesting you say that on the side dump. To me it looks just like the AD side dump offered in the Perf. Options catalouge. On the original cars they ran some other options from AD as I see such as GTA campy wheels on the front.

Agree on the ports, as we all know this is where the real power is made. I am still curious as to the cams they used and if they bumped up the compression as they did with the ETCC entered cars. I have a feeling they also used a different exhaust manifold, maybe a GTA manifold and as VInce says most likely 45 Webers. I assume the stock 2L 4.56 gears were also used, not sure. I am sure that little items from the AD catalouge were used.

Doubt they used a sliding block on the rear of these cars, probably just a stock 2L suspension with differen't springs, Koni's and adjustable control arms. As Vince says you can notice the rear arches have been pulled allowing for bigger rear wheels.

Everything else I am just speculating. I am so intriged, to know the accurate details though:)



I believe the exhaust would have been a locally fabricated racing exhaust, it looks quite different to a GTA/GTAm exhaust.
The Group C rules of the time allowed compression increase, bigger cams etc, but you were stuck with stock valves and ports, so it would have been an interesting exercise to extract maximum useable power when restricted by the ports and intake manifold being stock.
 

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Hi there,

That is interesting you say that on the side dump. To me it looks just like the AD side dump offered in the Perf. Options catalouge. On the original cars they ran some other options from AD as I see such as GTA campy wheels on the front.

Agree on the ports, as we all know this is where the real power is made. I am still curious as to the cams they used and if they bumped up the compression as they did with the ETCC entered cars. I have a feeling they also used a different exhaust manifold, maybe a GTA manifold and as VInce says most likely 45 Webers. I assume the stock 2L 4.56 gears were also used, not sure. I am sure that little items from the AD catalouge were used.

Doubt they used a sliding block on the rear of these cars, probably just a stock 2L suspension with differen't springs, Koni's and adjustable control arms. As Vince says you can notice the rear arches have been pulled allowing for bigger rear wheels.

Everything else I am just speculating. I am so intriged, to know the accurate details though:)
Based on the nature of the other cars in Group C, I believe suprisingly little would have been used from the Autodelta catalogue. I have no doubt they would have been running 11:1 or so compression, and I suspect to work around the small ports they would have been running cams with quite a bit of duration. The rules as they were written (to the effect of aditional links are permitted, but the originals must remain) would have rendered trying to run any sort of rear lateral location device very difficult, just ask anyone who's tried running a watts/panhard/sliding block with the original trunion still in place.
As I said, I'd lay money on it being a locally fabricated racing exhaust, from the flange at the head all the way to the side exit. It doesn't look remotely like the GTA/GTAm setup with its little "muffler" infront of the outlet. It looks more like a rectangular cross section megaphone that runs from somewhere under the passengers side seat. Why bother waiting 4-6 weeks for the imported item when a local fab shop could knock one up in a day. Ditto for the extractors.
Given the level of non Autodelta parts in some of the more heavily modified Alfas raced in period in Australia ( Foley's GTA with the F5000 based front suspension and Formula car engine is a perfect example), i'd be suprised if the autodelta catalogue was even opened apart from perhaps cams, pistons and diff gears. Diff gears were free in Group C, so they would have run what ever worked best.

Of course, as I was not there, I can't say with great accuracy what the spec of the cars was, but I am familiar with the way Group C cars were put together.
 

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Just to fill-in a few blanks, that car certainly did have an A/D side exit pipe when it first came to Melbourne a year or so after this magazine article, so I guess it would be safe to assume that's what is in the picture. I suspect that Foley had plenty of A/D bits just lying around in those times! Exhaust manifold had to be stock to the first joint; i.e, iron.
The engines ran 11;1 slipper type pistons as in the A/D options, both this car and another built by Foley for Gil Gordon Alfa (which I once owned, then sold for not much;stupid things we do!!!) still had them inside 15 years later. Cams were typical 'old style' of the period, 320 degrees, 10.5/11.5mm lift.
Alloy GTA trunnions were used on the rear (painted black) as all stock (looking!)suspension system components had to be present. Longer bolts thru the trailing-arms were used to mount a spherical rod ended trailing-arm in parallel with the stock arm, overiding the give in the rubber bushings.
As adjustable camber arms were not allowed, the front crossmembers were suitably 'tweaked' to give the desired result...
Gear ratios were the regular GTA close ratio set; in fact it was to repair these worn-out old 'boxes that I started re-making the GTA gearsets.
A mixture of GTA and/or Renmax F2 wheels were used. It was one of the super light formula-car Renmaxes that was blamed for Schenken's big crash.
See more pics on; www.autopics.com.au
Vin.
 

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Just to fill-in a few blanks, that car certainly did have an A/D side exit pipe when it first came to Melbourne a year or so after this magazine article, so I guess it would be safe to assume that's what is in the picture. I suspect that Foley had plenty of A/D bits just lying around in those times! Exhaust manifold had to be stock to the first joint; i.e, iron.
Ah, yes, my bad. I'm used to the Fords that were using the Phase 3 extractors through creative use homologation. Still, going from the photo that doesn't look like the AD side exits, but you've seen the car in the flesh. I'd love to see more pics of the car.

The engines ran 11;1 slipper type pistons as in the A/D options, both this car and another built by Foley for Gil Gordon Alfa (which I once owned, then sold for not much;stupid things we do!!!) still had them inside 15 years later. Cams were typical 'old style' of the period, 320 degrees, 10.5/11.5mm lift.
I'd be curious as to how they went in that state of tune on stock ports!

Alloy GTA trunnions were used on the rear (painted black) as all stock (looking!)suspension system components had to be present. Longer bolts thru the trailing-arms were used to mount a spherical rod ended trailing-arm in parallel with the stock arm, overiding the give in the rubber bushings.
As adjustable camber arms were not allowed, the front crossmembers were suitably 'tweaked' to give the desired result...
Glad to see the "Yes, its steel" shenanigans were reasonably common....

Gear ratios were the regular GTA close ratio set; in fact it was to repair these worn-out old 'boxes that I started re-making the GTA gearsets.
A mixture of GTA and/or Renmax F2 wheels were used. It was one of the super light formula-car Renmaxes that was blamed for Schenken's big crash.
See more pics on; www.autopics.com.au
Vin.
My understanding of Group C rules was that they had to be stock gearboxes? However, that may have been only the first year or so of Group C? Apparently gearboxes were somethign that wasn't particularly closely scruitinised.
 

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With the restricted cyl head rules, these engines used lots of cam timing to attempt to make up for the lack of flow capacity through the ports, although stock heads do vary a lot in size and material placement (shape) and I'm sure "selected" heads were used.
From what I've seen, 135-138hp at the wheels was about tops, on a dyno where a top stock 2litre would make maybe 100.
If you compare this to a current historic group N engine with big valves etc that makes 165-170hp at the wheels, which in turn is equal to 195-200hp at the flywheel (on the engine dyno). You can then extrapolate 138 out to about 160hp at the flywheel. Not quite the 200hp that everybody used to talk about!
This of course was also a very cammy and narrow power range.
I don't recall exact detail about gear ratio rules, but 4 of 4 GpC 105s that I have had to do with have all had GTA close ratios.
 

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I have spoken recently with the guy who saved the London-Sydney Marathon Berlina from the crusher a few months back and he says that it has an engine from one of these Mildren GTVs. He would love to track down the original autodelta prepared engine that was taken out of the Berlina. Personally I'd be stoked to have the 2L GTV engine with a history too!
 

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Hi Vince,

When I was studying at Uni a number of years ago (10 years to be precise), an aquaintance there told a story that he was racing an "ex Mildren 1750". I never saw the car but he was the son of the former presenter of ABC program "Media Watch" Stuart Littlemore, so he would have had access to money to finance such a car. I knew that the family was into Morgans so it was possible they owned a "better" car to race.

Do you have any knowledge supporting such a claim?

Cheers
 

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I have spoken recently with the guy who saved the London-Sydney Marathon Berlina from the crusher a few months back and he says that it has an engine from one of these Mildren GTVs. He would love to track down the original autodelta prepared engine that was taken out of the Berlina. Personally I'd be stoked to have the 2L GTV engine with a history too!
Derek,
These particular cars were Foley/Alfa Dealer team cars, prepped by Fred Gibson, not Mildren.
I think Mildren's involvment in touring cars had petered out a year or so before.
I'm glad the Berlina was saved by somebody. Is it to be restored? Last I saw it about 10 years ago, it was looking a bit worse for wear, but really needed an owner who would appreciate it for it's historical value.
 

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Hi Vince,

When I was studying at Uni a number of years ago (10 years to be precise), an aquaintance there told a story that he was racing an "ex Mildren 1750". I never saw the car but he was the son of the former presenter of ABC program "Media Watch" Stuart Littlemore, so he would have had access to money to finance such a car. I knew that the family was into Morgans so it was possible they owned a "better" car to race.

Do you have any knowledge supporting such a claim?

Cheers
It is certainly possible, although I can't confirm it.
Back in the days of series production 1600's and 1750's, it was not uncommon for dealers to take a new car and race it at Bathurst or similar, then put it back on the lot as a discounted demonstrator!
I have it on reliable authority that at least one of the 1750's that were involved in the multi-car rollover on the first lap in '69(?), went back onto the lot in this way......only driven on Sundays the sign said!
 

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Derek,
These particular cars were Foley/Alfa Dealer team cars, prepped by Fred Gibson, not Mildren.
I think Mildren's involvment in touring cars had petered out a year or so before.
I'm glad the Berlina was saved by somebody. Is it to be restored? Last I saw it about 10 years ago, it was looking a bit worse for wear, but really needed an owner who would appreciate it for it's historical value.
It will be restored. The owner has at least 10 alfas including a few berlinas & Giulias. The fact that he drove down to Victoria and brought it back to QLD shows he knows its importance. I'm confident he will do it properly!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I hope you all enjoy these, they were not easy to scan in for you all.

Neat to see!
 

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I bought this issue of SCW off of ebay the other day, and reading it raised a few questions for me...
What size were the Renmax rear wheels? The text says 230 diameter by 203mm wide with 153 offset, which makes no sense, but if you allow for a typo it might be 320mm diameter, so 13"x8"?
The "Newsdesk" blurb up the front of the magazine says they got busted for illegal parts that had been on the car for 2 years... This potentially cost Alfa the Touring Car championship in 75? Any idea what it was? From Vin's description i'm guessing its either the Trunnion or the gearbox, or were there other "tricks".

I notice in the engine bay picture the original rubber blocks have been replaced with longer (looks to be about 2" long) intake spacers/adapters for the 45s (intake spacers were free). I'm also guessing that the oil catch tank is up inside the drivers side front guard somewhere?
 

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I bought this issue of SCW off of ebay the other day, and reading it raised a few questions for me...
What size were the Renmax rear wheels? The text says 230 diameter by 203mm wide with 153 offset, which makes no sense, but if you allow for a typo it might be 320mm diameter, so 13"x8"?
The "Newsdesk" blurb up the front of the magazine says they got busted for illegal parts that had been on the car for 2 years... This potentially cost Alfa the Touring Car championship in 75? Any idea what it was? From Vin's description i'm guessing its either the Trunnion or the gearbox, or were there other "tricks".

I notice in the engine bay picture the original rubber blocks have been replaced with longer (looks to be about 2" long) intake spacers/adapters for the 45s (intake spacers were free). I'm also guessing that the oil catch tank is up inside the drivers side front guard somewhere?
As I recall, they got busted for illegal widening of the rear inner tubs to fit the 8'' wide wheels, and also shorter GTAm type steering arms to fit inside the 13" dia of the wheels.
Add to this the fact that a few of the 13x8 Renmax wheels broke and caused crashes, it hardley seemed to be a good idea with hindsight !!
 
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