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Discussion Starter #1
I have some questions concerning the Alfa 1900.

1) Can someone confirm that the 1900 T.I. Pantera cars were made by Carrozzeria Colli?
How much of them were made, in which year(s) was that, were they all T.I. based?



2) Were the military 1900 Torpedo cars internally made by Alfa Romeo or were they also made by a carrozzeria? Which one was that, how many were made, were they all made in 1952 and made they all use of the standard 1900 engine?



3) Were all the regular chassis (wheelbase 2630 mm) used by the coachbuilders ‘1900 L’ chassis or were also chassis used that did not wore the ‘L’ name tag? Does that include the Torpedo and Pantera models?

4) Which of the 1900 cars were officially Alfa Romeo models, distributed through the Alfa Romeo network and promoted with official Alfa Romeo advertising?

I think it were the following:

Alfa Romeo Berlina
Alfa Romeo Primavera by boano
Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint / Super Sprint / C Super Sprint by Touring
Alfa Romeo 1900 L Cabriolet ‘Victoria’ by Stabilimenti Farina
Alfa Romeo 1900 C Cabriolet by Pininfarina
(Alfa Romeo 1900 M but not for particular use)

But I’m not sure if this list is complete and correct. For instance was the 1900 C coupé by Pininfarina an ‘official’ model.

Please can someone complete/correct this list?
 

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Interesting questions, to which I have not much to say.
But I would add the Ti/TiSuper to the list as separate models.

Erik
 

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some interesting question Alfaman75
according to a sales brochure from 1952, the official program was as follows
1900 Berlina
1900C Coupe Touring
1900C Cabriolet Pinin Farina
1900L Cabriolet Victoria Stabilimenti Farina

The Colli produced versions, Police Pantera-Minestriale-Military Torpedo, was all specials to be delivered to official organisations, and I don't think they vas officially obtainable trough official sales canals
Productions numbers I have no clou.
But if one had a special desire I think it was possible to order one trough the sales canals, if a certain delivery time was accepted.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Torpedo also by Colli?

some interesting question Alfaman75
...The Colli produced versions, Police Pantera-Minestriale-Military Torpedo...
Do you have somewhere a (reliable) source which states that besides the Pantera and Minestriale cars, the Torpedo version was also made by Colli?
 

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I really like that remark "reliable sauce" it puts my statement in a frame. what do you regard as reliable?
From my memory, I had that information, but could not find it. Either could I find confirmation that Colli produced the Pantera.
Found some pictures of the Military cabriolet, will post the when my search is over.
The Boano Primavera was produced in 281 examples between 1955 and 1957, and was part of the official Alfa Romeo 1900 Super sales program.
I think we shall draw a line between Alfa Romeo 1900 from 1950/51 to 1954 and the 1900 Super from 1954 to 1959, as the official numbers of models was larger with the 1900 Super
IE. the Pantera and Primavera is 1900 Super
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I really like that remark "reliable sauce" it puts my statement in a frame. what do you regard as reliable?
From my memory, I had that information, but could not find it. Either could I find confirmation that Colli produced the Pantera.
Found some pictures of the Military cabriolet, will post the when my search is over.
The Boano Primavera was produced in 281 examples between 1955 and 1957, and was part of the official Alfa Romeo 1900 Super sales program.
I think we shall draw a line between Alfa Romeo 1900 from 1950/51 to 1954 and the 1900 Super from 1954 to 1959, as the official numbers of models was larger with the 1900 Super
IE. the Pantera and Primavera is 1900 Super
In Sefano d'Amico and Maurizio Tabucchi's book 'Alfa Romeo Production cars' there is written:"... between 1955 and 1957, the Turin Motor Coachbuilder Boano Bodied 281 examples of the Primavera two-door berlina...Alfa Romeo nevertheless included the model in its official catalogue and distributed it through its own dealer network"

But in other books like 'Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint' by Gonzalo Alvarez Garcia (unfortunatelly in Italian) there is written that 300 cars were built (see also my post http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/anything-about-alfa-romeos-alfabb-com/14640-1957-alfa-romeo-primavera.html#post468297)

It is mentioned in several sources that the Minestriale cars were made by Colli. In the the Carrozzieri Italiani book by Alberto Fornai which captures Colli, the Pantera and Minestriale are included, not the Torpedo (same question here: What is reliable?)
 

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1900 questions

1) I guess that the answer to the first question is quite clear. The "Pantera" for the "squadra mobile" is a special version of the 1900 TI Super with "carrozzeria Alfa Romeo" and not Colli.... some sources indicate that 400 of these Pantera's were made...

2) D'Amico and Tabucchi write in their first edition on page 338 : " The 1900 L model was a rolling chassis destined for external coachbuilders and had the same wheelbase and track dimensions as the standard 1900 berlina. The coachbuilders Stabilimenti Farina (cabriolet) and Bertone (coupé) and subsequently Ghia, Pinin Farina and Boneschi produced cars with overall lenghts that were in certain cases greater than that of the standard model."

They do not mention Colli, but a few pages earlier (335) they show a nice picture of the Carrozeria Colli on the 1900 L chassis, clearly with a longer wheelbase...

3) In the Domus "All the Alfa Romeos 1910-1995" book, on page 124 it is written that " The Milanese caochbuilder Colli produced a stretched version (with a wheelbase of 3.08 m) with 6 or 7 seats sold directly by Alfa Romeo.

4) Some numbers....

1900 : 7 611
1900 Super : 8 282
1900 Sprint : 949
1900 Super Sprint : 854
1900 TI : 572
1900 TI Super : 478
1900 Primavera : 300
1900 Lunga : 91

Probably Peter Marshall from the International 1900 Register can help us...

Luc Colemont
www.frecciadoro.com
 

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We shall not regard the 1900L as a longer chassis L=Lungo. The L chassis had the same wheel base and dimensions as a standard 1900. But the L chassis was offered to those that wanted to build special bodies
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
L chassis

According to the ‘Alfa Romeo 1900 Sprint’ book by Gonzalo Alvarez Garcia:

On page 48

chassis 1900 for carrozzieri 1951-1952

chassis 1900 L for carrozzieri 1952

chassis 1900 Super for carrozzieri 1954-1956


(what was the difference between the 1900 and 1900 ‘L' chassis )

On page 118:


1952 1900 Lunga (cabriolet) 1900L00071-1900L01100


(this can only be the ‘Victoria’ by Farina because the Pininfarina cabriolet was built on a 1900C chassis.) And also, why is it called 'Lunga', it has the same wheelbase as a normal 1900 car.

On page 119:


1952 91 cars tipo 1900 Lunga



But in other sources (e.g. books by Tabucchi), the 'L' chassis was made from 1952-1956

Is Peter Marchall one of the members on this forum?
 

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Here is a document that supports Luc's statement above.
It is a combination of photograph and brochure, officially issued by Alfa Romeo.
Obviously the car wasn't called "Ministeriale", "Berlina 1900 6-7 posti Colli" was used by the factory.



Best regards
Ciao Carlo:cool:
 

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Thanks Carlo, I just used the general Italian for this type of car
Here is some info from the 1900 C Sprint book. The most obvious place to look for info on Alfa Romeo 1900. But the last for me.
Page with productions numbers. Text regarding Pantera and Toepedo Sperimentale. Italien is not my strong site. But I understand its that Tprpedo Sperimentale, that could indicate its a one off. Its correlate with other that states the production was small.
Attach pictures of the Colli models of the 1900, some Pantera and Torpede and one of a special Matta that could be useful at this time of the year
 

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Discussion Starter #15
@2000 Touring SP

Thanks for the picture of the back of the Torpedo! That one was new for me.

Do you also have an original photo of the rear of the Pantera?



Hereby 3 different versions of the berlina 1900 6/7 posti by colli:

1900 - early 1900 Super - another 1900 Super





 

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A lot of sings happened as I was copying.
Alfaman75 we are using the same reef.
This L chassis was used as a offer as a platform for the Carrozzeria to build on. We must remember that the 1900 had a self carriage body. It meant that there was no chassis that could be used by the Carrozzeria.
The L chassis fulfilled that need it had the same dimensions as the standard self carriage 1900 chassis.
I se the L chassis as an attempt to offer possibilities, before the C=corta chassis was presented. Witch lead to an increasing variety of bodies.
The chassis used for the "Minesterale" chassis had a longer wheel base, and was probably extended at the individual carrozzeria according to need.
I mentioned that we should tray to diff, between the 1900 and 1900 Super. As the period with the 1900 Alfa Romeo had diff. to find out what feed they should use.
The L chassis was the first attempt for a individual chassis, and it was used by Stabilimento Farina as the only official user of L chassis Cabriolet Victoria.
When the C=corta was personated, there was no longer "need" for the L chassis. At this time Alfa Romeo maybe changed the wheel base to soot the "Minesterriale".
I don't think that there is a disagree, but we must just keep the time frame in mind
 

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Discussion Starter #17
@ 2000 Touring SP.
I don't agree with you on the fact that the 'L' chassis was not necessary anymore after the arrival of the 'C' chassis.

To name just one example: this '54 Pininfarina coupe was based on a 1900 T.I. chassis.




Question is, was it based on an 'L' chassis?
 

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Alfaman75 "I don't agree with you on the fact that the 'L' chassis was not necessary anymore after the arrival of the 'C' chassis."
With this example, I cant disagree with you either. Without knowing for certain, its build on a L chassis
But with you opening, 4) Which of the 1900 cars were officially Alfa Romeo models, distributed through the Alfa Romeo network and promoted with official Alfa Romeo advertising?
And its with this basis I do see the question regarding with the L chassis.
I think its a bit hasty to go to the one off. The 1900 TI by Pinin Farina was probably produced in 3 examples, and I don't think it fulfils you originally question.
 

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@ Alfaman75,

concerning your request about the Colli Primavera Gran Luce, I am sorry that I can't help with more photos.

But I found a nice parade of Patera cars.



And I wonder why I see no Colli badge at all on the Torpedo Sperimentale and Pantera versions of the 1900:confused:
That does't help me believe in the theory that those two versions were indeed built by Colli. In all of my contemporary photos Colli cars carried Colli badges. If another coachbuilder was also involved in the project, you will rather find badges of both companies than none.

Only the 1900 versions built at the Alfa factory were sold without any coachbuilder badge.

@ Bjarke, many thanks for the stunning photo of the Matta, I thought already you found a photo of BAT 11;)

Best regards
Ciao Carlo:cool:
 

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thanks Carlo, I think it could be useful for you, on the Autobahn in the morning.
I have to admit, that the Pantera and Torpedo Sperimentale, hasn't drawn mush attention from me up till now. They has always been some modifications done on a "Standard" 1900 done for the owner, the Government.
It was the question from Alfaman75, regarding authoritative source. That lead to a further search, than my head.
The only confirmation regarding Pantera, that its Colli, I the page that is posted. The Torpedo Sperimentale, I don't have any certain confirmation that it is done by Colli.
But it could be interesting to know for sure.
 
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