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1973 2000 GTV
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137 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Alright gentlemen (and ladies). Let’s have this discussion for the thousandth time. The 73’ is getting a full nuts and bolts restoration. Won’t be a piece that isn’t touched. That being said I’ve yet to make a solid decision on Spica Vs Webers (probably 45’s). The car is not going for concours, as I am changing from the original color. That being said, I’d still like to retain some level of decent auction value as I do treat the car both as a love AND an investment.

I know that the Spica supporters will riot about retaining originality and that after paying Wes Ingram with my left arm and my first born child that the system with be low maintenance. And I do agree. And obviously Ingrams work is unmatched. But...

Does a Weber conversion really hurt the value that much in the states? I intend to hit rod the engine a little. Nothing crazy. Probably looking at 180-190HP when done.

I’m concerned about hurting the value of the vehicle, while at the same time it makes no sense to me that dual Weber’s would hurt value when that is what the vehicle would have had in the entire rest of the world. Only the American market had Spica at the time, and it wasn’t because the Alfa engineers were thrilled to do it.

Does a Weber conversion really hurt the value that much in the states? I intend to hit rod the engine a little. Nothing crazy. Probably looking at 180-190HP when done.

Would it help the value of when and if selling the vehicle I include a fully rebuilt Spica system. The car is 98.5% original. Minus the fact the paint has already been stripped and the seats reupholstered (discovered thanks to informative forum members)

I can keep the car with the ability and the parts to be restored to originality, while having a bit more of a tasteful resto-slightly-mod for a finished product.

thoughts, opinions, threats? Lol
 

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Depends how mod crazy you are going. You are already deviating on colour, any permanent sheet metal mods too?
I feel investment is the wrong choice of words here....
Is the block/engine the original, s/n fall in the right range? If so, since you are doing a full engine rebuild why not rebuild a whole donor engine with carbs, correct front cover, intake manifold, etc, then keep you correct still good spica engine off to the side? The extra couple grand in a multi tens of thousands project like this won’t really tip the scales at all.
 

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People often write in to the Alfa BB with questions like your's. Actually, a better title for this thread might have been "Another damned thread about mods and market value".

The truth is no one can answer your questions - there are too many unknowns. As vintagemilano said, "Depends how mod crazy you are going". But it also depends on when you sell (strong market? weak market?), and most importantly, how and where you sell. BaT seems to assign the highest values to 100% original cars these days. But there are lots of places to sell a vintage car and other venues may be more forgiving of modifications.

Prospective sellers seem to want answers like: "substituting carbs for spica will reduce the value by 5.67%, while changing the color will penalize you by 3.56%, ..." The truth is that classic car values are a crapshoot - put your car in an auction with two inebriated bidders and it might set a record - put it on BaT the week the markets crash and you might not recover your initial cost. It's just impossible to forecast.
 

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In general, your GTV will be a restoration. As they say, it’s only original once and the price premium for that train left the station. It’s unusual for restorations-to-factory or resto-mods to fetch more than a pristine original, but it can happen. If you plan to keep the GTV for many years after the Resto, then do what ever will give you the most enjoyment knowing that your money spent goes to that. If you plan a resto-to-sell, then keep it original since any mods will only be appreciated by a buyer who would want that specific mod and you shrink the market of potential buyers (and resale value) by doing so.
 

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Why would you invest a first born on a SPICA and then shelve it for a second born conversion? HP aside this car is NOT going to be original by any metric measure, Hot rodded cars never bring as much as original documented cars with all their shortcoming of age.
 

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Looking on BaT, and sold GTV’s, and most of the highest sales are restored, and retain their Spica. But several selling for over 50 have carbs as well. I think you can retain value and modify, but the mods have to be tasteful and restoration to a high standard.
 

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I personally would build the car I want, assuming I plan to keep and use it, and not worry about resale. I am an originalist myself, not 100% originality in all cases but "in the spirit" of Alfa as I see it. Which includes Spica. You have to get pretty stinking high up the power range to get beyond what Spica can provide. Once right, set it, forget it, it'll work indefinitely. 190 HP is a lot to ask of a Nord street motor.

Andrew
 

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1973 2000 GTV
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137 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Alright, I appreciate everyone’s quick responses and now suddenly realize my first post was a little too long winded. Alfajay, was that a bad shot at the sunroof or a compliment? It appears to be one of the dealer installed ones that came from port in California. The car was originally imported to CA.

As far as modifications go, I plan on stock brakes (with the exception of pads and rotors) as with the light weight of the car I can’t see a benefit from a big brake kit when I don’t intend to track the car.

Alfaholics fast road suspension. I think that’s pretty much enough said there.

I‘ve been talking to Paul over at Spruell and with his advice I feel a proper overhaul kit, some hot cams, proper exhaust and fuel management (Weber’s/Ingram Spica) and a slight overbore piston and liner set that around 180-190 is not unfeasible.

Nowwww. With all of that, I’d just like it to be made clear I’m not a completely day dreaming kid. I’m a former master Mercedes tech with years of multi euro make experience. I’m a manager of a dealership and have easy access to master technicians (some of whom are euro resto pros) as well as body technicians and a Dyno (“rolling road”).

I have never owned an Alfa. I have been waiting my whole life to have the pleasure. But I am not inexperienced in general. I have been watching and reading Alfabb for a long time now and I honestly and openly reach out to the community for their combined millennia of experience and expertise. If any part of my goals seems ignorant and clueless it’s due to my lack of Alfa experience but that’s why i am here to begin with.
 

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1973 2000 GTV
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137 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Oh, and as far as appearance, as stock as possible with the exception of an original Hellbore steering wheel and the car is currently on 70’s manufactured Cromodora Daytona’s. And yes a color change due to my preference. Everything else would remain physically stock. The only modifications would be power and handling.
 

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There were no factory sunroofs, so yes, installed by distributor or dealer or later.
Trying to suss out future value in advance can be tough. In general stock cars in exemplary condition have the most value. Some mods can increase value if done well but most reduce value.
Andrew
 

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Alfajay, was that a bad shot at the sunroof or a compliment? It appears to be one of the dealer installed ones that came from port in California.
Neither. Just observing that if you list on this car on a site like BaT, you'll have so many comments about the sunroof that the peanut gallery there will never get around to discussing Spica vs. Weber.
 

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1973 2000 GTV
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137 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Alright guys,
Neither. Just observing that if you list on this car on a site like BaT, you'll have so many comments about the sunroof that the peanut gallery there will never get around to discussing Spica vs. Weber.
lol I’m not sure if that’s a good thing or bad. I’m grateful I did enough research over these years that at least I wasn’t tricked into thinking it was a factory sunroof. I knew going in it wasn’t. But after close inspection it appears to be a webasto similar to some Benz or Porsche’s I’ve seen of the same era. So while not technically “original” it does appear of correct era and good quality.

I can’t deny though that ive been nervous waiting for a die hard purist to beat me up over it
 

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I can’t deny though that ive been nervous waiting for a die hard purist to beat me up over it
I'm neither a die hard purist nor am I beating you up over your car's sunroof. Just suggesting that you be prepared to explain it when you go to sell the car, because it will generate some discussion.
 

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I don't know why everyone is always obsessed with peak horsepower numbers. Shooting for the moon for horsepower produces a peaky, hard to drive on the street, machine.

Here's an idea, shoot for the most torque over your expected driving rpm. You'll enjoy the car more as it'll be tractable around town, instead of having a dog until it revs out.

If you're worried about value, get on BAT and review the values for the various builds. There are plenty of Weber converted SPICA cars to divine your answer.

I find SPICA to be a fascinating solution to the problems that emission standards created. I'll be keeping it on my car, and am currently in line for the Ingram rebuild.

Best of luck

Bob
 

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1973 2000 GTV
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137 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
I don't know why everyone is always obsessed with peak horsepower numbers. Shooting for the moon for horsepower produces a peaky hard to drive on the street, machine.

Here's an idea, shoot for the most torque over your expected driving rpm. You'll enjoy the car more as it'll be tractable around town, instead of having a dog until it revs out.
Very good point, thank you.
 

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Premium Member
71 Berlina 74 GTV 17 Giulia Q4
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6,568 Posts
8 months is about how long it took when he did my last pump. I'd say 190hp borders on crazy mods and if that's what I was expecting I wouldn't expect a SPICA pump to be up for that. I have webs on my GTV for the real horsepower and an Ingram HP pump on my Berlina for everything else. Incidentally both are very driveable and both idle smooth at 8-900 rpm.
 
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