[wolf]

Hi
The 2000GT Veloce is fitted with a 45amp output alternator.
Has anyone fitted a higher output alternator from a recent Alfa?
I'm thinking of fitting a modern car sound system.
Wolf

 

[alfa_chan]

I want to fit my GTV with some higher output BOSCH alternator (generator) too.
Wanna put an electric radiator fan, and probably an electric powered AC - still looking for one.

Please help. Do I need special tools to pull the pulley off the generator, btw? Thank you.

Hi
The 2000GT Veloce is fitted with a 45amp output alternator.
Has anyone fitted a higher output alternator from a recent Alfa?
I'm thinking of fitting a modern car sound system.
Wolf

 

[dwc]

alternator upgrade

Hi Guys:


The alternator (70 - 75 amp) from a '90 - '94 Spider will bolt on to your earlier cars. I've used that unit on both my '74 and '87 Spider's without trouble. Of course the biggest improvement came on the '74, as it originally had a 35 amp unit. Now I can use the H4 high beams, defroster fan, wipers, and the stereo all at once. I had one tiny problem on both cars, though, which was easy to remedy. The fan on the new alternator (at least on both of mine) was ever-so-slightly larger than the original, so it rubbed (barely) on the washer under the head of the main mounting bolt, and also slightly on the bottom edge of the adjustment bracket. A little grinding of the washer and the bracket fixed things right up.

Besides the extra current output, the other difference is that the new alternator has its voltage regulator built-in. For the new alternator wiring, first remove the old regulator and the harness that connected it to the old alternator. Keep them or trash them, but they don't need to be on the car any longer. There will be one wire (green) left unattached in the car's harness, which is for the alternator light. Run a green 14 ga. jumper from it to terminal 'D+' on the new alternator. The big red wire from the B+ on the old alternator is the same on the new, but I replaced it with a larger 8 ga. wire, as I though the originla was undersized, even with the smaller alternator.

Also, I should tell you that others have used GM/Delco, Ford, or Chrysler alternators of various current output, which are usually available for less than $50. Some minor machining is usually necessary, and I didn't know if that was an option for you. I prefer to stay with a Bosch, anyway, as it's 100% bolt-on, and it looks original.

Here's a source for the Bosch alternator:

http://autoexpress.safeshopper.com/196/cat196.htm?201

$83, including core charge, and a 3-year warranty. Don't forget to disconnect the ground wire from your battery before doing anything, and ask if you have any questions.

Regards,

Dean
Lutz, FL
'74 & '87 Spider Veloce's

 

[artart]

Delco one wires

Saw a couple of the full time racers at AROC who used Delco's.
Everyone said that a spacer was required on the bottom bolt and another bracket was required to the adjustemnt bracket on top.
They are $35 bucks and you can use them with the internal regulators and only connect one wire. The hot rodders made this approach popular. Skip Patinode from VA & I spoke regarding this approach, he is coinvinced it's the way to go...
Just added an amp, CD changer and new deck to my 88 and now getting a slight glow at idle and can see the ammeter drop below 12 when I have lights and wipers on at crusing speed...so I'm getting ready to do something myself.
artart

 

[dwc]

alternator upgrades

I'm aware that the GM/Delco alternators have been used, but I'm not certain it's a bolt-on swap. A friend installed one on his '71 Spider last year, and had to mill a fair amount of metal from the rear of the mounting boss on the alternator. To clarify, the alternator sat too far forward on the timing cover before the milling. If you need specific details, let me know and I'll get in touch with him, and he can send some pictures of what was necessary. I also don't know if the Delco alternator has an output terminal (D+) for the indicator light on the dash. My recollection from owning a mid-80's Chevy was that there was the B+ cable and then a 2-wire plug that connected to the internal regulator.

I had a 1750 GTV in the late 70's that I did a lot of rallying with, and I managed to find a 75-amp Mopar alternator that did bolt directly on, and with it, I was able to use all the extra lights at once.

Something you might investigate on your '88, before swapping alternators, is the voltage output you've got now. For whatever reason, the Bosch units seem to have their regulators set a bit low, at least the ones I've seen. My '87 was barely making 13.2 volts, but had no trouble making its rated 70 amps. I changed to an adjustable voltage regulator, set at 13.8 volts, and the difference in how things work, like the power windows and wipers is pretty dramatic. These regulators are available for ~$22, and you'll get a new set of brushes at the same time. I also upgraded the B+ wire from the alternator to two 8 ga. wires. One goes to the terminal block on the left inner fender, and the other runs directly to the starter B+ terminal. I measured an additional 0.5 volts at the fuse box and it seems to keep the battery more fully charged, too. Everyone makes a big deal about poor grounds on Alfa's causing trouble, but every circuit has two sides, and the supply side can sometimes use some attention, too.

Regards,

Dean

 

[papajam]

Re: alternator upgrades

I also don't know if the Delco alternator has an output terminal (D+) for the indicator light on the dash. My recollection from owning a mid-80's Chevy was that there was the B+ cable and then a 2-wire plug that connected to the internal regulator.

Yes, it does have a D+ output. It's terminal #1 on the 2-wire connector. Terminal #2 gets jumped to the B+ term. as the power source for the field.

 

[Alex Csank]

I decided to just build my own bracket and mount a GM/Delco unit with the internal regulator for my '69 Spider. It works great!

Cheers,

 

[acurtiss]

Hi all,

I'm at the steep end of the learning curve here, but I'm trying to figure out what the problem is with charging system on my 67 Duetto. I have been scouring these bulletin boards and learned a lot, but I'm not sure what to do next. I've replaced the voltage regulator with a new Bosch unit, the battery is at full charge, and the fuses and fuse box are in good shape.

The symptoms are pretty standard: the battery isn't charging, and the generator light glows constantly and will often get brighter with faster revs. I have the Alfa Romeo Owner's Bible and his one line about the gen light is that it means "the ground wire to the generator is probably bad." (92) Now, my generator has a D+ terminal (red wire) and a DF terminal (black wire), strung to the voltage regulator. There is also a threaded hole with D- written next to it, only there is no terminal or corresponding wire attached here. So that's the generator.

On my old Bosch regulator, there were separate terminals for, on the left, B+ (two spades here), and 61 (one spade); and on the right, DF (spade), D+ (larger spade), and a lower bolt for D-. The new regulator, also Bosch and correct for 1600s, puts only B+ on the left side, and on the right D+ and 61 on the same bolt, with DF on another and D- on the lower bolt. I did the logical thing and fixed both 61 and D+ wires to the shared terminal, and connected everything else as appropriate.

When I reconnected the battery and started the car up, there was still no charge to the battery, and still a glowing GEN light on the dash.

So obviously the voltage regulator is not at fault here, and I'm lead to believe that my generator is just tired. But the fact that there is a D- terminal on it and nothing attached to that makes me wonder. I've had this car for a little over a year and these electrical problems have only started happening since the weather got rainy (and of course I've been running wipers, heater, lights, more often than before).

Is an alternator conversion the ultimate fix here? I'm almost hoping it is, in spite of the time and money I've already spent trying to figure out what the problem is.

If anyone can help me with some tips on diagnosing the generator (I have a mulitimeter), that would be great. Or if this seems like an obvious time to swap in an alternator, any tips on that would be great, too.

Thanks,
Aaron
(Here's the car )

 

[Alex Csank]

The Alfa generator is not bad as generators go, but they are prone to needing attention pretty regularly and they never really do put out that much power. When running the wipers, lights and heater fan, the generator just can't keep up it seems.

In my view, converting to an alternator made a lot of sense. Now that I have, I can run the wipers, lights, heater fan, etc and not worry about a thing.

The conversion is easy and inexpensive and it sure works! Plus, if you ever really need to be in concours condition, just keep the gennie and put her back in when you need to!

Cheers,

 

[dwc]

Hi Aaron:

Unless you're a concours fanatic looking to preserve 100% originality, there's no reason not to install a modern alternator. Take a look at this srticle about the conversion from a generator to alternator:

http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/downs/3837/duealt.html

I've always used the latest Bosch internal regulator type, but as you can see in previous postings, others have used the GM units. I like the fact that the Bosch units look more original, are made for the higher rpm range of an Alfa engine, and also that an adjustable internal regulator is an inexpensive upgrade. But, I haven't heard of any problems with the GM's, so that option is certainly viable.

Regards,

Dean
Lutz, FL
'74 & '87 Spider Veloce's

 

[papajam]

With changing out the regulator, the generator may need to be 'polarized'. To do this, and assuming there's battery voltage at the regulator B+ terminal, fashion a jumper wire and momentarily jump terminals B+ and DF at the regulator. And yes, there will be a spark! Now start the car and using your multimeter, check for voltage at the DF terminal on the regulator. If it's not battery voltage, there's something up with the regulator. If there is battery voltage at the DF terminal, check the voltage at the generator DF terminal. It MUST be the same as the regulator DF terminal voltage. If it isn't, repair/replace the DF wire. If the voltages check OK, then the gennie probably needs a re-brush and a commutator dressing (or an alternator conversion).

 

[acurtiss]

Wow, thanks for the quick replies.

Jim, I went ahead and did as you suggested and 'polarized' the generator. Then I checked the DF voltage, but I think I may have done it wrong. First I used the voltmeter over B+ and DF and it showed 12.23. Same at generator: DF to battery + was 12.23. So, if I did this correctly the result is that the wire is good. I'm just questioning now whether I checked the right thing.

Also, if anyone out there knows Bosch numbers, this is what my generator reads:
BOSCH 705
01012060660059
EG --> 14V25A29

I suspect this is already a replacement part.

Thanks again for your help everyone. The alternator conversion is looking like the best option right now.

Aaron

 

[papajam]

Well, you accomplished what needed to get done but in a way I didn't think of. By checking voltage between terminals B+ and DF at the regulator and generator, you've determined 3 things; 1) there's battery voltage at the B+ terminal (that's good) 2) the DF wire is OK (also good) and 3) there's no voltage at the DF terminal; not good.
Please keep in mind that due to the lack of popularity in the use of generators these days, my diagnostic technique IS rusty. This next test is used to test alternators so it may work for generators too. It bypasses the regulator and applies battery voltage to the field circuit. Hence the term 'full fielding'. Hook up the voltmeter to the battery. Start the engine and run it at a fast idle, say 1200 - 1300rpm, using the hand throttle under to dash (so THAT'S what that thing is for ). Note the battery voltage. Momentarily jump terminals B+ and DF at the regulator while looking at the voltmeter. If the voltage stays the same or drops, the generators not working. If the voltage increases, the generators working but the regulator isn't.
The only difference between the part number on your generator and what's listed in the parts book is the '0059' which isn't in the parts book. What is listed though is the letter (R) in parenthesis after the 'EG'. The Bosch regulator # is 0 190 350 023.

 

[acurtiss]

... and 3) there's no voltage at the DF terminal;

In other words, the voltage at the generator should have been a little or a lot higher, right? I was performing this test at about 3000 rpms.

Later this morning I'll try the regulator bypass test you recommend. From what I understand, the only difference between alternators and generators is the method by which they produce power. In other words, the output of both will look the same since the alternator converts to DC anyway. If the purpose of this test is to check non-regulated output then it should work equally well for generators and alternators. Still, I think I'm flogging a dead generator....

The Bosch voltage regulator numbers are as follows:
0 190 350 055 (old)
0 190 350 005 (new)

Apparently none of my part numbers match what's in the book.

In the meantime I'll get all the parts I'll need for an alternator conversion. Thanks Dean for the link to that article -- it was very helpful. One quick question about that: is it necessary to remove the radiator and fan before swapping out the generator?

Thanks for all this great advice. Electrical problems are always a tough nut to crack.

Aaron

 

[acurtiss]

Getting ready...

Ok, so the alternator arrived and I'm ready to get a little dirty this weekend making this conversion.

I have a couple quick questions. When the alternator arrived it included a note that said to be sure to charge the battery before using the alternator. I'm not exactly sure why this is necessary, and although my battery is not dead, it's not at full strength either (about 11 volts or so). I'm happy enough to charge it again, but if I can avoid yet another walk to Kragen carrying a battery, that would be nice. A related question would be, can I connect a jump start battery to bring my car battery up to a healthy charge?

Now, about the actual work of removing the generator and installing the alternator, I suspect this is easier to do with the air intake removed, but is it necessary to also remove the radiator and fan?

Any other last minute words of wisdom are appreciated.

Thanks!
Aaron

 

[Alex Csank]

Just remove the air intake and the battery and tray (if you have one. It's a bit tight with the fan there, but once the belt is off, you can turn the fan so the blades don't get in your way. It will take a bit of finger bashing to do it, but you can manage, as long as the engine is cold.

Regarding the idea of connecting the new alternator to a fully-charged battery...I think that's hogwash!

Cheers,

 

[acurtiss]

Some success...some failure

Well after a few extra trips to the parts store and quite a bit of lost skin on my knuckles (the fan shroud is in just the wrong place), I was able to get the old generator off and the new alternator on.

Removing the air intake was not a problem. But the battery tray, on my car at least, is welded onto the body. So there was no getting around that. I did bend it back a ways when wiggling the alternator in between it and the rest of the hardware in that area (it's tight). I also had to unfasten the fan shroud in order to more easily thread the mounting bolt into the alternator.

I used a longish GM starter bolt, and two washers between the alternator flange and the block in order to space the pulleys correctly.

I used a Dayco 35315 belt instead of the 35310 -- there is a useless little lip that protrudes out of the water pump that perfectly blocked the flange where the alt bolt would go on the alternator. The extra half inch was all that was needed, and while it's at about full extension on the bracket it seems to be the right tension.

Once it was all installed I connected blue to blue (D+ to 61 / dash light wire) and black to red (DF to Battery +), hooked up the battery (which I had charged just for good measure), and started her up. Happily, voltage now read 14.3 at the battery at about 3000 rpms. The only immediately negative thing was that the generator light on the dash was not lighting at very low rpms.

I let it run for a while, drove around the neighborhood, etc., then parked and checked battery voltage again with the ignition off. It read a happy enough 12.7.

Now, the real bad news. A few hours later I went back out to the car and tried to start -- nothing. There was no juice at all. I checked the battery disconnected and it is reading low, less than 10v. With the ground wire connected, it drains at a pretty fast rate. If I remove the black wire from the alternator, it stops draining. Now it appears I have a short somewhere, or else I've hooked something up incorrectly...? The dash light would seem to indicate something is out of wack, but I'm not sure where to start looking.

Any ideas at this point are most welcome.

Aaron

 

[papajam]

Good show getting the alternator installed and charging the battery!
Charging light; does the light come with key on and engine off? Does the light then go off when the engine is running? If so, that's the benefit of an alternator - some can produce more power at idle than some gennys can at full song!
What kind and approx year alt did you install (Bosch, GM, etc.).

 

[acurtiss]

I sort of hoped the dash light was the result of a really strong charge coming even at idle, but unfortunately the light is not coming on at all even when the car is not running and the ignition is on. On the bright side, so to speak, the battery is getting charged...

The alternator is a reman of a 90-94 Spider alternator from the site mentioned in one of the earlier posts to this thread. ($83 shipped!) It has one screw post for the blue wire, and a spade terminal for the black wire. The voltage regulator appears to be mounted directly to the back of the unit -- a white gizmo with a small black box on top, spreading across maybe 3 inches and bolted at either side.

Further diagnosis today revealed nothing new: the battery loses charge very rapidly if it is connected to the car's system with the engine off. It maintains a charge just fine if disconnected, so I know the battery is ok. I have one of those battery cut-off devices so I'm just disconnecting it every time.

I'm feeling around in the dark now in terms of understanding what might be the cause of this problem, and I'm hoping it wasn't the alternator I just installed. Would it be possible for an alternator to acutally drain power from a battery?

At the fuse box, fuses 3, 4, and 5 (from left) are 'live' at full voltage; all the others are at 0.00 with the ignition off. Is this right? It makes sense, but I'm not sure I'm deciphering the electrical diagram quite right.

I'm not done yet, but thanks for the encouragement and all the help.

Aaron

 

[acurtiss]

Nevermind!

I figured out what I did wrong -- the chart on this page
http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/downs/3837/duealt.html
showed me that blue (D+) does NOT go to blue (61), it goes to red (B+). And black (DF) goes to blue (61). My girlfriend wouldn't have made this mistake. I'm just glad I didn't fry my wiring in the meantime.

So now, the dinamo light comes on at idle (I'm happy to see it there), goes off at about 1200 rpms. In an hour or two I'll find out if I'm still losing a charge, but I suspect this was the culprit all along.

Aaron