Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 35 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
After a closer look, the wiring harness in the console that came with the car does not match the harness in the car. Below is a diagram of the differences which are with the wires marked 1 and 2.

By using a detailed photo from an earlier post I was able to connect the proper wires to connectors on the switch. I did have to use a jump wire from connector 3 to 7.

Now I have two speed wipers - sort of, but the blades do not park.

Here are the wires connected to the numbered connectors on the switch using the wire color as it came from the harness in the car.

1. Gray
2. not used
3. Blue
4. not used
5. Blue/Black (hot wire)
6. not used
7. Blue - jumper from 3
8. Blue/White

Any ideas how to get the park function to work?

Also, the original configuration has a black wire on connector 5. That black wire was connected to the black wire on the fan switch. Not sure what the purpose was.
 

Attachments

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,365 Posts
Now I have two speed wipers - sort of, but the blades do not park.
Disclaimer: I haven't sorted through your charts of wire colors/connections.

I can think of two reasons why your wipers don't park:

- WW motors typically have N wires going into them. N-1 of these come from the dash and foot switches and handle the low & high speed operation. The remaining wire is hot all the time and handles the park function; is it possible that wire isn't connected? If you probe the wires with a pointy-ended tester when the wipers are turned off, do any test as hot?

- If the result of the above test is "yes", then it's probably something internal to the motor-gearbox unit. There are brushes that control the park function; these can wear out with time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Jay, The blue/black wire is always hot. My GTV does not have a foot switch for the washer. There is a push button switch mounted on the lower left front edge of the dash.
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,803 Posts
Your wire list is correct but 2, 4 & 6 should be jumpered together.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,803 Posts
OK.
The rocker switch that was used on Spiders had 8 terminals. Your list is correct for that switch if you jumper 2, 4 & 6.
I have owned a couple of GTV's that had the 5 contact toggle switch and I was unable to make them work with 2 speeds + park. I bought a new one of those switches last year with a view to using it in my spider but after a lot of head scratching I came to the conclusion that the only way that I could make it work with 2 speeds and park would be to use it to pull in relays.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,365 Posts
Jay, The blue/black wire is always hot.
You didn't come right out and say "and that hot blue/black wire from the connector definitely goes into the motor". But if that is the case, then I would say it's something inside the WW motor/gearbox.

We can debate the wiring order on the switch all day, but if two-speed operation is working OK, then I would say that the switch and its wiring are fine. They have nothing to do with the "park" function.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,803 Posts
They have nothing to do with the "park" function.
On my Spider the park circuit is made through a contact in the wiper switch when it is the off position. From memory it goes like this:
The hot wire to the WW motor goes to the microswitch which is always closed except when the wipers are in the park position. The wire from the microswitch goes to the 8 pin switch. When the switch is in the off position this hot wire is returned to the slow speed winding. So the slow speed winding is energized by the park circuit when the wipers are not in the park postiion and the wiper switch is in the off position.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,365 Posts
alfaparticle said:
On my Spider the park circuit is made through a contact in the wiper switch when it is the off position
Even if Bruce Sharer's Alfa is wired like that, if the switch inside the WW motor fails, the park function will cease to work.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,803 Posts
Even if Bruce Sharer's Alfa is wired like that, if the switch inside the WW motor fails, the park function will cease to work.
But his switch cannot be wired like that. Sure if anything in the circuit that I described fails, including the microswitch, then the park function will not work.

Maybe I have not been clear but I don't understand how any of the 5 terminal switches that I have seen can provide two speed operation plus a park function. I would love to be enlightened. Maybe there is someone reading this who has a GTV with a 5 terminal switch and two speed self parking wipers and he can tell us how it is wired.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Here's some additional information on my WW switch. A continuity test shows that 2, 4 and 6 are internally connected, and are connected to 5 which is where the always hot wire is connected.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
265 Posts
Bruce:

Does your wiper motor have three or four wires? While I hate to contradict noted Alfisiti guru AlfaJay, some later GTV's had four wire motors. My 73 GTV has a four wire motor but I don't know when they switched (you should pardon the expression) over.

Here's how the four-wire system on my '73 GTV works:

PARK CIRCUIT:

Power for the park circuit goes via a blue/black wire from terminal #4 on the WASHER switch to terminal #2 on the wiper motor. Terminal #4 also has a blue/black wire coming from fuse #2. These blue/black wires should always be hot.

The park circuit is completed when the wipers aren't in the parked position by a black/white wire which runs from wiper motor terminal #4 back to WASHER switch terminal #2.

The park circuit is independent of the wiper motor switch on the console.

For reference:

WIPER SWITCH TERMINAL CONNECTIONS - 4-WIRE WIPER MOTOR:

1. Gray wire connected to switch terminal 3. Washer terminal #3 also has a gray wire going to terminal #3 on the wiper motor. The gray wire is the high speed wiper power, can be activated by either the wiper switch or the washer switch.

2/4/6 are connected either internally or externally, have no other connections.

3. Jumpered to terminal #7. I don't remember if it's an internal or external jumper.

5. A blue/black wire connected to fuse #2. This is the power to the switch and is always hot.

7. Has the jumper already mentioned from terminal #3 and a blue wire that goes to wiper terminal #1. This terminal is powered when the switch is moved to the LOW speed position.

8. A white/blue wire connected to washer switch terminal #1.

Good luck with it!
Bob Stewart
73 GTV
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,365 Posts
Hey Stooie. As with alfaparticle, I'm not sure you are contradicting me. While all my experience is with older Alfas that have only 3 wires going into the wiper motor, I'm not questioning that later models used 4 wires. But that doesn't contradict the main point I made in post #2 (which I have corrected based on your comments): there has to be a wire going to the motor that remains hot after the wipers are switched off to provide the power for the "park" function. So if none of the wires going into Bruce's motor are hot with the WW switch off, then it isn't going to park.

But all this is probably irrelevant; I'm guessing that Bruce's wiring is fine and that the problem is internal to the WW motor-gearbox.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I assume that I have to partially disassemble the wipers and remove the piece of body work around the wiper assembly to determine if the motor is a three or four wire motor? If so, that will have to wait. I am scrambling to get everything back together for a December 11th trip out of town. I can manually park the wipers for the moment. Just in case there is someone who doesn't know, working under the dash is a major PITA. Or in my case PITB. I have a horizontal line of bruising across my lower back from lying upside-down looking at the wiring and vent connectors, and radio placement, etc......

Now, I'm fighting with a brand new, but ill fitting carpet set. Who designed this mess?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
265 Posts
Bruce:

No, you don't have to pull the motor and linkage to determine how many wires the motor has. There is a connector under the dash.

Trace from the two gray wires that go from terminal #3 on the washer switch. One will go over to the console and the wiper switch. The other gray wire will go more or less straight forward and up to the harness connector for the wiper motor.

If you find a four wire connector there then your motor is similar to mine. The four wires are:

Blue/black: Parking circuit power, should be hot all the time
Gray: Motor high speed, activated by wiper switch and washer switch
Blue: Motor low speed, activated by wiper switch
White Blue: Completes the circuit for the parking circuit. Should connect to washer switch terminal #2.

The way I THINK the way the parking circuit works is that power goes to the motor via the always hot blue/black wire. When the wiper switch is in the off position, if the motor is not in the parked position then power comes back to the washer switch terminal #2 via the white/blue wire. I believe the wiper switch in connected internally between terminal #2 and terminal #3 which puts power to the motor high speed terminal via the gray wire.

It seems more complicated than it should have to be; good thing the electrons don't charge for mileage.

The bottom line is that for the parking circuit to work:

1. Your blue black wire coming from the washer switch to the motor must be always hot.
2. The rubbing block system in the wiper motor must not be so crudded up that it fails to transfer power between motor terminal #2 (parking power in) and motor terminal #3, (parking power back out) and the attached white/blue wire.
3. The white/blue wire must be connected to washer switch terminal #2.
4. The washer switch must energize its terminal #3 and the gray wiper high speed signal when washer terminal #2 has power applied.

Good luck with it!
Bob S.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,803 Posts
I have seen two different wire color schemes for 4 wire motors
Slow - Blue or Green
Fast - Grey or Red
Hot - Blue/Black or Black
park - Blue/white or brown

The first set of colors are also the ones that are used in the wiring harness for a 73/74 GTV. They are shown on the diagram in the owners manual.

I have no proof of this but here is my theory : 73/74 GTV's had 8 terminal switches that were configured to work the same was the 8 terminal rocker switches used in Spiders. If you look at the wiring diagrams for the two cars they are the same. The 8 terminal switch uses an external jumper to connect three terminals together. The 5 terminal toggle switch that Bruce and I have is an aftermarket switch that looks like the original but has a different internal configuration. The original ones are probably NLA and the look-alikes are the only ones that are sold new. Your best chance of making the 2 speed motor work with the parking function is to find a used or NOS original switch.

there has to be a wire going to the motor that remains hot after the wipers are switched off to provide the power for the "park" function
That is the Blue/Black (or Black) wire. It goes to the micro switch. The other contact of the micro switch is the Blue/White (or Brown) wire. It is connected to the slow wire (blue or Green) to drive the motor until the micro switch is opened when the wipers are parked. This is accomplished through a contact in the main switch which is closed when the switch is in the off position and open when either slow or fast are selected.

Bruce - I have a laminated black/white wiring diagram for a GTV that I bought from Centerline a long time ago. I have no use for it. I will mail it to you if you want it.

Another suggestion - if you permanently connect the Blue/white wire to the blue wire then the park circuit will always be enabled and the wipers will park unless either the Blue or blue/black wires are energized to run the slow or fast speeds. But when the fast speed is selected then both the slow and fast motor connections will be energized and the motor will run at an intermediate speed. So instead of having slow and fast speeds you will have slow and half fast (which is what you might call this suggestion)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,803 Posts
Here is the function of the washer switch. It has two sets of contacts, one that is normally open and the other is normally closed. The normally closed switch is in the blue/white circuit that runs from the micro switch to the wiper switch and then to the slow terminal of the motor via the Blue wire. It opens when you push the washer button and disables the parking circuit as long as the button is depressed. The normally open switch has hot (Blue/Black) on one side and gray on the other. It closes when the button is pressed and it supplies 12V to the fast circuit. The reason for the normally closed switch is that it prevents both fast and slow connections from being energized at the same time.

The two speeds in the motor are accomplished by off setting one of the brushes. The slow brush is 180 degrees from the ground brush and the fast brush is about 150 degrees from the ground brush (or 210 degrees, depending upon how you look at it)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Since I have two speeds with manual park, I had to move on to the next tasks. Gotta get this back together by Friday morning (Thursday evening, actually) for our annual party. I'll check the wiring as recommended next week. Thanks all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
561 Posts
Luke - if you know of a reliable fix for the linkage joints, a lot of people would like to know about it.
I should have taken pictures, but basically I drilled out the rivets on the linkage ends to remove the sperical bush pivots, made new pivots out of self lubricating synthetic material (they are round to self align with a 10.1 mm bore), and rivetted them back together. I also removed the bushes from the wiper posts, made new bushes from the same material and reassembled.

Classic Alfa sell new linkages, but I did this for less for my friend/client.

Not sure what the CA ones are like, they could be made in Botswanna or something like that??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
225 Posts
I just wanted to say thank you, as this discussion really helped me out trying to sort out the wipers on my recently acquired 1975 GT Junior. When I got the car, the wipers would only run at low speed with the switch in position 2, would not park, would not respond to the foot switch and the wiper switch needed to be wiggled to get it to work at all.

I found that the previous owner had fitted a 5 wire motor (spider?) but only connected 2 wires, the 5 pin wiper switch was defective as was the foot pump switch, which wasn't even connected. The washer nozzle was also blocked.

So, a new 4 wire motor, linkage, arms, 8 pin switch, washer nozzle and foot pump later everything is working as intended - all purchased from classic alfa.
 
1 - 20 of 35 Posts
Top