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Wow... it seems like lots of people on the AlfaDigest are really upset about getting the email announcing the opening of this place! Sounds like an angry mob over there... planning all sorts of retaliation and such :confused:

Some people need to calm down and take a chill pill... why everyone is getting so upset about a stinkin email is beyond me. I guess it's just a trend recently on the digest, everyone seems a bit cranky recently... there's more *****ing and less good info.

I'm glad to see this forum start... and I hope it brings lots of members. I really like the vBulletin software and it's nice to finally have an Alfa forum using it! I find the email digest kind of annoying myself.

My opinion.
 

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AlfaRacer75 said:
I find the email digest kind of annoying myself
I'll second that about the whole email thing. As far as SPAM goes how long does it take to delete 2 emails?

I like the site as well and hope it grows.
 

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SPAM is Bad - there was another way

I think the Alfa digest has every reason to be in an uproar. The email addresses were harvested from the list by Simon, and sent unsolicited.

If this is a non-commercial site - why not just send a message to the digest announcing that there is a new, forum-based, bulletin board? You would still have been noticed, and wouldn't have p**sed anyone off.

If it is a commercial site - then you owe the digest money.

It's not just a matter of deleting two emails - I get 20 or more SPAM emails per day - from offering to lengthen the size of my manhood, to refinancing my house. Why associate yourself with these people.

Now - this BB looks like a great idea - and I wish you well - but don't get people's back up if you don't have to.

A well worded apology on the list would go down very well - and mean that people would participate in both forums and happily co-exist.

Nikos
 

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I too hope that this site and forum becomes wildly popular and successful (I need alot of expert help with my Alfa's :) ) But, I have to agree with NikosF on this one, and would hate to see the forum getting off on the wrong foot. I used to be in the "what's the big deal about deleting a couple of spams.." crowd but owning a network that includes over 20 email servers in its ranks, I can attest to the expense (bandwith, server resources etc) and administrative nightmare spam creates. I think harvesting emails and sending UBE to the list reflects poorly on the business involved and speaks to the level of professionalism, or lack thereof, in the company. I don't know personally any of the people involved in making this forum happen, (although, being Alfa enthusiasts I am sure they are really great guys / gals) and maybe someday we will be lucky enough to meet over a beer (or six) to "discuss" the spam issue. For right now I say: offer a well worded and sincere apology to the members of the AlfaDigest.
It was wrong harvesting it was wrong sending UBE. Take your lumps and move on.
 

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I was wondering why all of a sudden I was getting those spam emails? If NikosF is correct about getting 20 or more SPAM emails per day like I do, maybe the Digest can try to take steps to come up with some kind of way to put a stop to it. I wish good luck to this AlfaBB. It's a great tool and I hope it surpasses the Alfa Digest-Don't get me wrong, I really have and still learn a lot from the Digest but now it's time to move on to bigger and better things. And I don't mean offering to lengthen the size of my manhood, to refinancing my house!

John
71 Alfa Spider
 

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I tend to agree with NikosF and alfaspider on this one. There are smart ways of going about things and there are not so smart ways. Using the digest facilities to harvest for e-mails was not so smart - people get enough spam already and you end up upsetting your potential customers (if it is indeed a business?).

As alfaspider says, it says something about the level of professionalism, or lack. Was it really so hard to find this page?
http://www.digest.net/alfa/#Policies

The apology suggestion sounds like a good one to me.

As for the digest, I'm sure it will survive. The great thing about it is the text format - no huge jpegs, bitmaps and executables attached, takes almost no time to download (even with a slow net connection) and you aren't faced with page full of smiles, HTML code, buddy buttons and the like. Just the content that you can skim through quickly.

On the other hand, the BB format provides addition features and you can simply browse the areas you want. I think there's room for both on the net.

Good luck with the BB.
 

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Do right by Mr. Welty

The e-mails themselves were no big deal to me, & I'm glad to have this sort of format for Alfas. I've enjoyed a VW BB for a number of years now, & I've always thought that this would be good for the online Alfa community.

However, I do think Richard Welty has every right to be angry. Those e-mail addresses were taken from him without his permission, & he's been an honest & hard-working part of the online Alfa community for many years. If someone took my car without my permission, I'd be madder than hell even if it was returned to me undamaged.

Do right by Mr. Welty; start with an apology to the AD. If you can't see your way clear to do that, I will discontinue my participation on this site.

Michael Keith
Houston, TX
'87 Milano Gold
 

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yes, please do the right thing and apologize...

The virtual Alfa community is too important to allow hard feelings among groups and members to fester. An apology and offer to make restitution is needed here. As much as I want this forum, and especially in this medium, to succeed, I will find it difficult to continue contributing to AlfaBB if my (new) friends on AD are not done right by smestas and Sniady.

Please let's put this one behind us as soon as possible.
 

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ALFA Digest & Spamming

Simon probably needs to post a sorry about that to the digest is all.

Overall this type of format is for a different audience than the digest. Some people would rather have an email in their inbox instead of going to a site.

I am a member of Ferrarichat (forum similiar to this) and Ferrarilist (similiar to the digest). Ferrarichat has a younger crowd overall, more computer literate. Ferrarilist has the more monied crowd. Both have their good points & bad.

Good luck with the ALFAbb site.
 

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Digest - Do the Right Thing

This is a terrific site, but an apology (or a defense!) would be a good idea all the way around. Knowing alfabb pinched the emails, I deliberately gave the least amount of info registering, because I'm not sure I trust the operators. A judgment based solely on the marketing methods.

Here's to hoping alfabb will post an apology or a defense so I can enjoy and post in peace. I mean you are Alfa guys, how bad could you be?

You are Alfa guys right .... ?;)

Tim Campbell
Lexington, KY
'88 Spider Veloce
 

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I have to agree that the uproar in the digest was a less than ideal way to start this off. Hopefully fences can be mended.

I'm glad to see this BB starting up and hope that a large segment of the digest will migrate over.
Its sad and an incredible waste of the collective knowledge of Alfisti that the digest is the Alfa community's forum of choice. A listserv was really cool in the 70s, guess what, its the 21st freakin century!

Attached images, a searchable database, gee what a concept!

Make nice with the digesti, long live AlfaBB!
 

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Im Sorry!

First of all I’d like to publicly apologize to Richard Welty (Alfa Digest Coordinator) for all of the recent grief that I may have caused him. I never realized what I did or was doing was such a bad thing at the time. I offer my humble apologies for my ignorance. I’d also like to apologize to the partial list of members that I emailed too notifying them of the new AlfaBB.com site. This email was sent unsolicited and should have never gone out in the fashion that it did. At the time I thought they would welcome the email with open arms. Many Alaf Digest members commented on what an amateur I am for sending the email the way I did. Guess what folks I am an amateur at this and it will be my first and last time I’ll ever try something like that! I am a total newbie to the Alfa community and not familiar with all of the associations that I could have used to promote the site. I’m sorry for the delay of this much needed apology but the holidays have had me quite busy.

Here are a few facts of what has been said here and there.

Am I a regular spammer?
NO! Absolutely not. This was the first time that I have ever attempted to do something of this nature. Contrary to popular belief if I wanted to spam a large group anonymously I would have not used my personal mailbox. I was such a rookie at it that I accidentally sent the mail twice.

Is the real frustration of the whole matter stem from me?
Questionable! It seems that Alaf Digest members are not only upset at me for my mailing but from the additional SPAM mail they have been receiving in general. My suggestion is not to have their emails available in mass mailed list or available thru any commands using the majordomo software.

This feature is offered thru the Digest HELP Command.

V. FINDING OUT WHO'S SUBSCRIBED TO A LIST
To get a list of the addresses on a particular list, you may use the "who" command, followed by the name of the list:

who demo-list

Note that many list owners allow only a list's subscribers to use the "who" command, or disable it completely, believing it to be a privacy violation.

At the time when I sent my emails this function of the Digest was still available. When running this command the entire members email list is returned to you. Has this feature been available for others to use? Yes. Is this the source of their spamming problems? Probably! Did I ever execute this command for multiple boards? Yes I did. Did I ever mail to any of these lists that were given thru this command? Absolutly NOT! The list was somewhere around 1300 members and If you look at my email it contained only around 700. This was because I did it the hard way and extracted user emails from the digest mailings that were in my email box from the last month or so. Administrators look at your time stamps of when I sent my email compared to the time stamps of when I executed my “WHO” command and this will verify what I’ve stated.

Have I received hate mail and damages from this?
Yes I have. I don’t care to mention any names but I have received quite a few hate mails with colorful language regarding what I did. This bothers me quite a bit because all I offered was the ability to use a FREE website! Have members of the Alfa Digest sent emails to officials and reported me as a spammer? Yes they have and this is already causing me lots of trouble since my web design business revolves around the use of email and other internet connectivity.

Is there a business model related to this site?
No! This site has been a hobby for me as is my love for cars. I have no relations or ties with any automotive distributors, resellers, or vendors. I’ve been a member of many forum based sites and have learned what a great resource they are. In my search for Alfa information I found that there was a need for something similar. Everything about this site from software, labor, and web hosting has come directly out of my own personal funds which happen to be another expensive hobby next to cars. All I offer is a FREE community based bulletin board nothing more nothing less.

I hope this clarifies a lot of questions and speculations as to what ACCTUALLY happened! A copy of this is apology is being emailed directly to Richard Welty (Alfa Digest Coordinator) whether he chooses to post it to the Alfa Digest or not is his decision.

Regards,

Simon Mestas
 

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a needed deed is indeed done...

Simon, thanks for the explanation, especially the detail and the context, on this unfortunate and in hindsight, misunderstood affair. Writing what you did as you did must not have been easy.

Long live AlfaBB! Non che da piangerre.

Ciao, --jim
 

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Well Done Simon

Very well done. I hope the nastifisti see the light. At least you erred trying to do something worthwhile -- and this board is that.

I like the Digest a lot, it's a great community and a good service. This board is a different beast. I am thrilled to have both.

Tim Campbell
Lexington, KY
'88 Spider Veloce
 

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Well done

You did the right thing. Criticism you may have deserved, but hate mail, you did not. Too bad that some felt the need to resort to that. Pay it exactly the amount of attention it deserves.

Hopefully, you & Richard can mend fences so that we can all get back to discussing Alfas.
 

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An apology has been proffered; LET'S MOVE ON

Simon, your apology is obviously sincere. In my work, know I've taken some well-intentioned acts that I thought were, at worst, innoccuous. By the response of others, you'd think I was evil incarnate and capable of committing only the most nefarious of acts. I know how this feels, Simon. Richard Welty has provided the Alfa community an invaluable service for years and will continue to do so. Nowhere but the AD will we find the level of discourse we've all benefited from. And his sensibility over all this deserves respect. I would guess, however, that it has been the more passionate members of the community who have been the vitriolic. Richard is a gentleman who, I'm sure, will be receptive to your appology. Now, Simon, I'm curious: You apparently have a strong interest in cars, but by your own admission, you're not that familar with Alfas. How'd that happen?
Now, Simon, I'm curious: You apparently have a strong interest in cars, but by your own admission, you're not that familar with Alfas. How'd that happen?
 

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Re: An apology has been proffered; LET'S MOVE ON

above it says: edited by sniady. I didnt know my Moderating powers but i clicked edit on dougs post, started typing and realized i was typing over his post. But i fixed it back up. Sorry!!!

Doug said:
Now, Simon, I'm curious: You apparently have a strong interest in cars, but by your own admission, you're not that familar with Alfas. How'd that happen? [/B]
Simon does have a strong interest in cars, he owns a 79 SC Porsche (put hundreds of hours into it) and can't wait to purchase a GTV, anyone have one?

So, recently about 3 months ago he started broswing the web for all sorts of Alfa sites. There are great amounts of well put together sites out there that I would've never seen if not for him.
One day he asked me if the Alfa community has a Bulletin Board site. I told him,"not that I know of". He sent me a link to www.pelicanparts.com a huge porsche bulletin board website, you can find anything about porsches.

I said, this is what the Alfa Community NEEDS!!!

...and that's how we started this board
 

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Re: Im Sorry!

Simon,

I truly have trouble with your apology. As I'm sure you know, I'm one of the people whom you spammed. My issues have nothing to do with the other spam that I get, of which one is far too many, and there's far more than one.

Let's go through a few points that you raised in your apology. First off, you say "I never realized what I did or was doing was such a bad thing at the time."

You also say "Guess what folks I am an amateur at this"

Ok, fair enough, but then you go on to say "since my web design business revolves around the use of email and other internet connectivity."

If you work in the world of the internet, then, whether you like it or not, the simple fact is that you are a professional. As such, you should be aware of the ethics involved.

Your ignorance of this points more towards your naievity than anything else, but that is in no way a justification, and it in no way makes what you did acceptable to me.


You said "I never realized what I did or was doing was such a bad thing at the time." What you did was steal the resources of Mr Welty. Since when is stealing not a bad thing?


"I’d also like to apologize to the partial list of members that I emailed too notifying them of the new AlfaBB.com site. This email was sent unsolicited and should have never gone out in the fashion that it did. "

Too right it shouldn't have!

"At the time I thought they would welcome the email with open arms. "

Perhaps, but at the same time, you need to learn to respect the privacy of others. If and when I want to be spammed, I'll be sure to let you know. Just don;t hold your breath waiting around for it. :)


"Many Alaf Digest members commented on what an amateur I am for sending the email the way I did. Guess what folks I am an amateur at this and it will be my first and last time I’ll ever try something like that! I am a total newbie to the Alfa community and not familiar with all of the associations that I could have used to promote the site."

What is the relevance of this? Spammng users has less than nothing to do with being a member of any community, other than the community of spammers! The fact that this relates to Alfas, or your lack of knowledge of Alfa resources, is in no way relevant.

And if you don't know, what's wrong with asking? I've always found that a simple email to a relevant party will frequently give me the guidance that I need to move forward.


"I’m sorry for the delay of this much needed apology but the holidays have had me quite busy."

Too busy to apologise? Hmmmm ....


"Here are a few facts of what has been said here and there.

Am I a regular spammer?
NO! Absolutely not. "

Ok; I can accept this.

"Is the real frustration of the whole matter stem from me?
Questionable! "

Not at all. Nobody else pushed that little "send" button, did they?

Nobody else included a massive list of people in the "to" address line, thereby invading the privacy of a whole host of other members of the community, did they?

Just because the facility to query the names of the users exists, doesn't make it right to use it to spam those users, does it?

And I think that if you read the rules of the Alfa Digest, Mr Welty makes it quite clear that the list should not be used for commercial purposes without his prior approval. I would have thought it nothing more than common courtesy to have approached him with a view to requesting his permission prior to stealing the names ...



"At the time when I sent my emails this function of the Digest was still available. When running this command the entire members email list is returned to you. Has this feature been available for others to use? Yes. Is this the source of their spamming problems? Probably!"

Actually, probably not. SPAM comes from all manner of sources; I have several spam traps invokesd on my servers, and I'm amazed (no I'm not) at where they come from. I'm active in a number of global internet communities, and anybody who is active in this way will attract a fair bit of spam. It's a fact of life.

Disgusting, but a fact!


"Did I ever execute this command for multiple boards? Yes I did. Did I ever mail to any of these lists that were given thru this command? Absolutly NOT! "

Then how in the world did I get FOUR messages from you?


"The list was somewhere around 1300 members and If you look at my email it contained only around 700. "

That makes it ok? Give me a break!


"Have I received hate mail and damages from this?
Yes I have. "

Hate mail?

I can't comment on what others sent you, but I sent you a very angry message, detailing my disgust at the fact that you had invaded my privacy.

What's wrong with that?


"This bothers me quite a bit because all I offered was the ability to use a FREE website! "

Well, whoop-de-doo! Did we ask for it?

More importantly, did we ask you to spam us?

Do the ends justify the means? No, IMHO.


"Have members of the Alfa Digest sent emails to officials and reported me as a spammer? Yes they have and this is already causing me lots of trouble since my web design business revolves around the use of email and other internet connectivity."

Good, and so it should. You have abused your responsibility in a very big way, and have abused the resources of others, invading their privacy in a very big way.

Your claims to ignorance bear little weight because you claim to be a professional in the business of the internet. You cannot have it both ways!


"Is there a business model related to this site?
No! This site has been a hobby for me as is my love for cars. "

It's none of my business, but how many Alfas do you, or have you owned? What relationships do you have with the Alfa community?

"I’ve been a member of many forum based sites and have learned what a great resource they are. In my search for Alfa information I found that there was a need for something similar. "

You didn't look too hard, did you?

"I hope this clarifies a lot of questions and speculations as to what ACCTUALLY happened!"

No, not really.
 

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Call off the lynching, please

If "gstark" were a prosecutor in real life, we'd have no need for prisons, assuming, of course, that every point he made wasn't refuted by itself. Come on, gstark. Do you really comport yourself this way in real life? Or does the fact that you can click send to a nasty email without seeing someone's face allow you to forget your humanity? Uh, oh. I guess now I'm a target of your vitriole, too.
 

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Doug,

Unlike you, I'll avoid a personal attack.

I simply call it as I see it, and the target of my rebuttal was not you, but Simon.

Sometimes the truth hurts, but it's very simple. Simon, by his own admission, spammed a whole lot of people, and invaded their privacy. Which part of that do you have trouble understanding?

Simon, by his own admission, claims to be an amateur, yet he also claims to be a professional web designer. That makes him a professional in the internet arena. There's a very simple conflict here. Which part of that do you have trouble understanding?

Simon, by his own admission, spammed not 1300 people, but only 700.

By his own admission, twice.

By Simon's own admission, he inadvertantly included their email addresses, thus invading their pivacy.

Except that I got each of those dual messages twice. That's four times.

Which part of this excludes me, and the rest of the 700 people from humanity?

Which part of this makes it ok to steal the names and addresses from Mr Welty?

Which part of this makes it ok to invade my privacy. Not to mention the privacy of others?

Which part of that are you having trouble understanding?

No, you're not the target of my vitriole. I doubt you're worth the effort.
 
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