[stphers]

Hi

I am looking for the tool that helps set up the throttle stops on a Spica system

Anybody have one for sale or know where I can buy one?

Thanks, Rick

 

[vintagemilano]

If you get a hold of something I would be interested in a drawing or ? to get a local machine shop to make me one.

 

[Edgewood121]

I spoke to Wes once about throttle stop settings and the factory tool. He said to follow his instructions and not use the factory tool. He said the factory tool is surprisingly not accurate. I wasn't expecting to hear that.

 

[Jim G]

I spoke to Wes once about throttle stop settings and the factory tool. He said to follow his instructions and not use the factory tool. He said the factory tool is surprisingly not accurate. I wasn't expecting to hear that.

I'd have to disagree with that.

The tool just sets the stops. Then you adjust the rod from the butterflies to the crank. Not really any way for it to be inaccurate.

 

[andylarry]

I have the factory tool, used it many times. I agree with Jim.

 

[stphers]

I have done them with a protractor but that is kinda of a PIA way to do it I would like to get a tool to do it

Andy, any chance of doing a drawing of it so I could get one made or make one myself ? my email is [email protected] A few pictures and notes on measurements might be enough to get started

Thanks, Rick

 

[horsewidower]

We need to get Axlejr to make some. I'd be in for one.

 

[Edgewood121]

I'd have to disagree with that.

The tool just sets the stops. Then you adjust the rod from the butterflies to the crank. Not really any way for it to be inaccurate.

Just repeating what he said. In theory anyway, I would more agree than disagree with Wes, with a lot of it being predicated on how the system has been fiddled with prior. I didn't spend time going into detail (wish I did). Also some of the factory set-up instructions, let's just say he didn't agree with either.

For example, how accurate is setting the throttle stop going to be if someone already fiddled with the butterflies? Even if the butterflies are correct, what about manufacturing tolerances of both the tool and the system? Is there too much slop which alters ideal settings? Also, the geometry of the rod sweep will be different which could cause a shift in the fuel map or being in the desired fuel cell during specific load points, which could cause flat spots?

In reality though, I think the system will still run well enough without perceptible difference for most, myself included. Maybe Wes was just speaking to a higher level of precision? I don't know.

Would be awesome if Wes gave us a virtual live-stream fireside chat so we could hear some cool stories on his experiences and research.

For the record, I still used the factory tool. I didn't have the patience for the protractor method (but may do it one day but just not a priority with everything else the car needs to have done). I just wanted to drive my car for the time being rather than measure a few millimeters.

 

[Edgewood121]

I'm surprised Centerline or some of the other vendors don't sell a replica of the tool. It wouldn't be too hard or too costly to 3D-print in hard plastic.

 

[andylarry]

I can't say that I agree with everything in post 8. The tool makes it faster and easier to get the set-up ready for the next steps. Like Jim said, use the tool and set the closed and full open screws correctly. It takes less than 5 minutes start to finish. Then set the short rod so that the throttles close at the same moment the relay crank hits the stop. Then, go forward to getting the screw under the TA set, the long rod, the fuel shut off solenoid, the cold start solenoid, etc. adjusted. I will snap some images and post them. It's a 3 dimensional tool. I would think that a proper 3D scan would be needed. Someone send me PM to remind me, if I forget.

 

[Edgewood121]

I can't say that I agree with everything in post 8. The tool makes it faster and easier to get the set-up ready for the next steps. Like Jim said, use the tool and set the closed and full open screws correctly. It takes less than 5 minutes start to finish. Then set the short rod so that the throttles close at the same moment the relay crank hits the stop. Then, go forward to getting the screw under the TA set, the long rod, the fuel shut off solenoid, the cold start solenoid, etc. adjusted. I will snap some images and post them. It's a 3 dimensional tool. I would think that a proper 3D scan would be needed. Someone send me PM to remind me, if I forget.

I hear ya. Just trying to play devil's advocate based on what I was told by Wes. What if the tool itself isn't accurate to begin with? How do you verify the tool itself is accurate? Then all those steps are tied to a point in space that isn't anchored to the ideal base setting and thus you get a shift.

What if some of the steps from the factory manuals are not accurate? How do you verify that? What about variations from vehicle to vehicle on manufacturing tolerances?

I think Wes found out all of those things over the years based on dyno testing and flow testing different set-ups.

Don't get me wrong, I used the factory tool as well. Very easy but I think the take away is the tool gets you close or close enough but probably not dead-nuts accurate. All assuming everything else is at factory settings, which many times isn't the case.

Also, cam timing/profile and valve lash can affect things as well.

What you mentioned about throttle and relay crank closing at the same time, Wes said that was extremely important and to listen for a dull clunk sound (which demonstrates both closed simultaneously). A higher pitched "clink" indicates that one is closing before the other and thus not set correctly. He said "believe it or not, it makes a difference."

Some info on the forum state that a small feeler gauge should be able to slip through the butterflies but Wes said the butterflies should be completely closed at idle.

I felt like I was talking to Yoda.

 

[andylarry]

Yes, the sound does change. Actually there are 3 different sounds. One when the relay crank hits the stop before butterflies, one when the butterflies close before the relay crank hits the stop, and one when they hit at the same time.

 

[horsewidower]

Invaluable info. I'm supposed to get my pump back from Wes in the next week or so. The above information is helpful.

 

[Jim G]

I don't get it. How accurate does it have to be to set the idle and WOT stop. Thats it. Thats all the tool does. Once its set. Thats it. Never to be messed with again. Unless someone else screws with it. If its a thousandth off. Is it going to make a difference? Its everything else after the throttle stops that is adjustable where error can creep in. Now if your missing the special nut for the tool. Then yeah. If might be off when you set the stops.

You also have to remember a lot of what Wes has done. Is tuning for racing. At that point yes. It might not be accurate enough to get you that extra 100th of a second to win.

 

[Edgewood121]

I don't get it. How accurate does it have to be to set the idle and WOT stop. Thats it. Thats all the tool does. Once its set. That's it. Never to be messed with again. Unless someone else screws with it. If its a thousandth off. Is it going to make a difference? Its everything else after the throttle stops that is adjustable where error can creep in. Now if your missing the special nut for the tool. The yeah. If might be off when you set the stops.

You also have to remember a lot of what Wes has done. Is tuning for racing. At that point yes. It might not be accurate enough to get you that extra 100th of a second to win.

That is my takeaway as well. Things will be close or close enough for 99% of us with the factory tool (assuming other variable in the system are close enough to factory spec as well). There could be transitions that aren't perfect or maybe tip-in response is not quite agreeable, but not enough of an issue to spend time on granular adjustments. Also, with so much wear and tear on most cars, factory settings can never be attained anyway so why waste the time chasing these things.

With that being said, I think maybe being as close to proper factory setting is more about hot/cold starting, decel, warm-up, idle and low-range characteristics. I can see small changes having a noticeable effect in these situations due to the small volume of air and fuel delivery. Making adjustments make up a larger percentage of the picture in those areas.

Of course, if there are other areas of the car that are out-of-adjustment/out-of-spec, the worse the challenge to get SPICA adjusted for a proper operating range. No throttle tool will help out here.

What helped me tremendously was the installation of an Air/Fuel ratio sensor and to watch the changes. Very illuminating. For me, it was extremely beneficial for dialing the mixture in with the Fuel Cut-off Solenoid. SPICA delivery isn't linear and it shows under different operating characteristics. So trying to aim for a fix for idle mixture, for example, will show up also as changes somewhere else down the line that are upsetting. Just fun to watch and the information is extremely valuable and informational.

 

[GTA ALFA]

I spoke to Wes once about throttle stop settings and the factory tool. He said to follow his instructions and not use the factory tool. He said the factory tool is surprisingly not accurate. I wasn't expecting to hear that.

I agree with Wes, we have spoken about this. I've never used the factory tool. All done by eye and close inspection. Say what you want to say, but the tool is not the end all - be all. I've had to undo many botched Spica "tuning" attempts, even some from after using "thee tool". First setting for this adjustment always (an most important) starts with the butterflies just closed, all other adjustments are taken from this point.

 

[andylarry]

Here are a few images. The first three have the tool A.4.0121 with special cone nut installed on an old Alfetta engine in the shed. You can see the "ball" on the relay crank that operates the long rod checks to the upper (moveable) stop on the tool when the relay crank is in the idle position, and then at WOT the ball checks up to the lower stop. Using the two screws, the relay crank is adjusted to these two points.