Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 78 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
161 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi guys,
Does anyone has information of the Scuderia Ferrari built cars?
I know about SF 24. SF 25, SF 28, SF 30, SF 32 and the Tipo B, SF 44.
SF 28,30 and 32 are Monzas and the Rest?
Are there more SF Cars?
I have Pictures from SF 28 and SF 44, both from Klaus Werner in Germany. I've heard he found both Cars in South Africa. Are they real? I would be happy, if somebody could tell me the registration Numbers of these cars. I have so many pics of 8C 2300 Alfas, so it would be nice, to know which Licence Number is which car. They are changing hands very often and they most are Monza lookalikes, so its difficult to identify them.

If there is an interest, I share my pics.(More than 15000 Alfa pics)
It would be nice to have something similar like the barchetta cc web-page, for Alfa Romeos. Its easy to identify Ferraris (90%), a little bit more difficult with Maseratis (80%), but Alfa (15%).
Why there is so much mistery?

Greetings
Jörg
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
6,139 Posts
Hi guys,
Does anyone has information of the Scuderia Ferrari built cars?
I know about SF 24. SF 25, SF 28, SF 30, SF 32 and the Tipo B, SF 44.
SF 28,30 and 32 are Monzas and the Rest?
Are there more SF Cars?
I have Pictures from SF 28 and SF 44, both from Klaus Werner in Germany. I've heard he found both Cars in South Africa. Are they real? I would be happy, if somebody could tell me the registration Numbers of these cars. I have so many pics of 8C 2300 Alfas, so it would be nice, to know which Licence Number is which car. They are changing hands very often and they most are Monza lookalikes, so its difficult to identify them.

If there is an interest, I share my pics.(More than 15000 Alfa pics)
It would be nice to have something similar like the barchetta cc web-page, for Alfa Romeos. Its easy to identify Ferraris (90%), a little bit more difficult with Maseratis (80%), but Alfa (15%).
Why there is so much mistery?

Greetings
Jörg
I don't know about anyone else, but I have a BIG interest.

I believe the SF numbers end at something like SF55...which should be an 8c36 GP car.

I am not certain, but I believe that the 12c37 "low line" cars do not have SF numbers.

The expert on this would be Simon Moore. He has been working on a pre-war Alfa GP car book for at least 10 years!


I think part of the reason for the lack of interest is that there has not been an active pre-war Alfa register for many years. There earliest Alfa register that is active at all is the one for the 6c2500s. Most of the US Alfisti are interested in cars from the 750 giuliettas series to modern Alfas, and not the earlier cars...
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
6,139 Posts
Hi guys,
Does anyone has information of the Scuderia Ferrari built cars?
I know about SF 24. SF 25, SF 28, SF 30, SF 32 and the Tipo B, SF 44.
SF 28,30 and 32 are Monzas and the Rest?
Are there more SF Cars?
I have Pictures from SF 28 and SF 44, both from Klaus Werner in Germany. I've heard he found both Cars in South Africa. Are they real? I would be happy, if somebody could tell me the registration Numbers of these cars. I have so many pics of 8C 2300 Alfas, so it would be nice, to know which Licence Number is which car. They are changing hands very often and they most are Monza lookalikes, so its difficult to identify them.

If there is an interest, I share my pics.(More than 15000 Alfa pics)
It would be nice to have something similar like the barchetta cc web-page, for Alfa Romeos. Its easy to identify Ferraris (90%), a little bit more difficult with Maseratis (80%), but Alfa (15%).
Why there is so much mistery?

Greetings
Jörg

Jorg:
Create that kind of web site, and I will be your first visitor! :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
161 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Grand Prix Sportscars

Hi Stu,
thanks for your Reply.
In my opinion, these few Special racing cars, are the most facinating cars of all time. Like most, my personal connection with Alfa is from Giulietta onwards. Pre-War Alfas were ever out of my reach and not this kind of sportscar, with which I grew up.
Everything changed, when I tried to follow an 6C 2300 B MM, at the argentinian Mille Miglia, in an full race prepared Jaguar XK 140 OTS. I had to drive, like Jenks says, in full song.
First time I got it clear, that Pre-War cars do not only look fantastic, they allthough could drive like sportscars.
Now twelve years later, I have two Pre-War racing cars (French) and learned a lot (still learning), about the roots of my beloved Sportscars. I can tell everybody, we lost a lot of fun and exitement.
We are engaged by development.

I think, I would be frightend to drive a Formula One on public roads, apart, I'm not a Midget, to fit and to drive a modern supercar with speedlimits all around the world, makes no sence.
I'm searching for years now information and Pics for 2 Seat Grand Prix racing cars and, like the Englishman says, 'The violation of the Sportscar', their street versions. Starting with cars from 1904 (Brasier, Renault etc) until the last(Alfa 6C 3000 CM, Maserati A6G 2000, Mercedes 300 SLR Coupe).

Most of us don't know anything, or only a few of these cars, cause there is non or only a little information. Even with Simon Moore, who is maybe the 'God' of pre war Alfas, but many things are pure speculation. The 412's for example.

I'm happy for you, that you had the chance, to drive an 8C 2900, but could you tell us, how drive a car like this ? What where your driving impressions?

If there is interest, I could give my driving impression of Bugatti 35 C, Bugatti 46 S and Delahaye 135 Course, but sadly no Pre-War Alfa.

I've read so many times, that most Collectors would sell last the Alfa 8C 2300 Monza, cause it is the best of all. Is this true? Colin Crabbe told me, that the 8C 2300 drives much better, than the 8C 2900.
Would love to hear some opinions. John de Boer has one of most beautiful Maseratis of all times, Hightec combined with beauty, what happen's to this marvel?
I think in our community there are a lot of people, who knows a lot, the question is, are they willing to share?

Let's start with some beauties. Who knows something
Greetings
Jörg
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
46 Posts
Alfa GP

Several very interesting points, I would be very interested in a Barchetta style website for alfa's.
Firstly though Alfa Scuderia Ferrari cars I have some info on are SF33, SF45, SF46, SF48, SF51, SF53, SF54 & SF64, PM me if you want its pretty skinny information but may be of interest. I have a feeling for the early cars they might have been numbered all the way back to RL's ?? or maybe just the 6C1500/1750 series. And most also had a Alfa serial number, but not all.
As to the website question, heres 3 points
1 - Do any of us have direct information or is everything based on what we have read in books or seen on the net ??. For certain Alfa Romeo kept very little information on there racers, witness the issues Simon Moore and others have getting information on these cars. If the information we have is from Simon's books etc. is that copyrighted ??
2 - Who would pay for the website ??
3 - Most importantly, what about legal issues, lets say we work out that the Alfa P3 discovered in Nepal in 1997 (just for laughs) is a fake. What would the owner/ seller say/ do, sue maybe ??. Would any of us want that, I dont know how Barchetta gets around that issue.
The long and the short of it is someone, anyone should get in touch with the person that runs Barchetta.cc and ask him for some information/ help on how to do this, the pitfalls and the costs !!!
Timmmmmmmmmy
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
6,139 Posts
I have had the fortune to drive 4 different 8c2900s in my life; the LeMans coupe, the Mille Miglia spider now owned by Ralph Lauren, the 1947 Mille Miglia winner (but with the blower put back on; it ran the 1947MM with four 1bbl sidedraft carbs), and one of the Touring spiders. All were different from each other. The LeMans coupe was LOUD. You wouldn't want to drive it without earplugs. The 1938 MM car was the most fun, but the LeMans car probably has a higher top speed. The 1947 Mille Miglia winner seemed bigger and slower, but not much. The Touring bodied "street" car was similar, but not quite as agile, as the 1938 MM car.

As far as pre-war GP cars, I have driven a T35 Bugatti, and an Alfa Tipo B. I want to drive the Bimotore REAL bad, even though it is a "replicar" I also wouldn't mind a drive in a Mercedes 125, 154 or 163, or an Auto Union... :)
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
6,139 Posts
I have no direct information as to the SF numbers. I'm sure Simon Moore knows as much or more than anyone else. He has been working on his pre-war Alfa GP car book for over 10 years!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
161 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
SF Information

Several very interesting points, I would be very interested in a Barchetta style website for alfa's.
Firstly though Alfa Scuderia Ferrari cars I have some info on are SF33, SF45, SF46, SF48, SF51, SF53, SF54 & SF64, PM me if you want its pretty skinny information but may be of interest. I have a feeling for the early cars they might have been numbered all the way back to RL's ?? or maybe just the 6C1500/1750 series. And most also had a Alfa serial number, but not all.
As to the website question, heres 3 points
1 - Do any of us have direct information or is everything based on what we have read in books or seen on the net ??. For certain Alfa Romeo kept very little information on there racers, witness the issues Simon Moore and others have getting information on these cars. If the information we have is from Simon's books etc. is that copyrighted ??
2 - Who would pay for the website ??
3 - Most importantly, what about legal issues, lets say we work out that the Alfa P3 discovered in Nepal in 1997 (just for laughs) is a fake. What would the owner/ seller say/ do, sue maybe ??. Would any of us want that, I dont know how Barchetta gets around that issue.
The long and the short of it is someone, anyone should get in touch with the person that runs Barchetta.cc and ask him for some information/ help on how to do this, the pitfalls and the costs !!!
Timmmmmmmmmy
Hi Tim,
thanks for joining. Would like to have your information, about the SF Cars. I think, for us, the Alfisti, it would be valueble for all, to understand and learn more about the cars. I'm personally happy for each car, which still exists, or exist again. I don't like to do business with old cars, that's for different kind of persons. For me the car business is insane and I cannot understand people, who don't have the need for money, getting crooks, to earn some more.
For me, Old cars are Culture, like old Paintings. I think, I'm the only person, who feels sad, that the Rosso Bianco Museum, doesn't exist anymore. Such a Collection of luxery PreWar Cars, we will never see again. One could compare different Designs of Cars Side by Side.
All gone for earning money. -'What an *******'-

My interest is to learn more about old cars, in general, not only racing or sportscars, but specially I like the unknown cars, like the etceterinis, Grand Prix Sportscars and my Alfas and I want as much as possible information and Pics. I would like to do a virtual Museum, but not only with 'glamour cars'.
At the beginning, I'd liked the barchetta page very much, so much information, but 90% Ferraris and allways the same cars. But now they are cardealers and are trying to push the prices even higher.
How could it work, that they do a Report about a Racing day, writing, that there participated an Tipo 33 Stradale and not one single pic. How many Stradales are in Europe?
Best information has ultimatecarpage, best Pics supercars.net, lots of american cars conceptcarz, french cars, gt dreams and at last traumautoarchiv.de. Its difficult with english cars, and german cars hardly exists.
I think, most of the important cars are in the US, but the americans like to take pictures only from common cars. And there are so many important collections, like Miles Collier's, or Fred Simeone's.
I'm triying to find some good pics of the Boano Alfa 6C 3000 CM and there is nothing, the same with the Boano 1900.

But lets go back to the SF Cars.
Many 8C 2300 were raced by the Scuderia Ferrari, the Monza was only in 1931 a front Runner. With the appearence of the Bugatti 51 and the Maserati 8CM its changed. In 1932 Alfa made the P3 and and Ferrari had to use, after Alfas withdrawn from GP Racing, the bored out version of the Monza. Later he got the P3s and he used the Monza for Sportscar Racing. Were there so much difference between the Zagato-Touring Spiders and the Monzas?
Apart the 8C were so expensive, so it was hard to sell, worst the 8C 2900. In the same period Bugatti sold about 700 Type 57 and this was not a sports car. Was it nationalism?
France was the richest Country in Europe after WW I and England wasn't very affected by the great depression, but had strange Rules for sportscar Racing and banned very early the Blower from Racing. So why Ferrari started to built in 1934 more Monzas and against the Silver Arrows more P3s?
No one can tell, there was a market for Racingcars and most of the Racing Car manufacturer broke.(Ballot, Rolland-Pilain, Delage,Talbot, Aston Martin, Sunbeam and Bentley, to name a few), even Alfa Romeo only survived thanks to Mussolini (Ferrari Connection?). Bugatti survived, thanks to the French State (Railcars) and Maserati with sparkplugs.

Somebody have some answers?
Jörg
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
6,139 Posts
Hi Tim,
thanks for joining. Would like to have your information, about the SF Cars. I think, for us, the Alfisti, it would be valueble for all, to understand and learn more about the cars. I'm personally happy for each car, which still exists, or exist again. I don't like to do business with old cars, that's for different kind of persons. For me the car business is insane and I cannot understand people, who don't have the need for money, getting crooks, to earn some more.
For me, Old cars are Culture, like old Paintings. I think, I'm the only person, who feels sad, that the Rosso Bianco Museum, doesn't exist anymore. Such a Collection of luxery PreWar Cars, we will never see again. One could compare different Designs of Cars Side by Side.
All gone for earning money. -'What an *******'-

My interest is to learn more about old cars, in general, not only racing or sportscars, but specially I like the unknown cars, like the etceterinis, Grand Prix Sportscars and my Alfas and I want as much as possible information and Pics. I would like to do a virtual Museum, but not only with 'glamour cars'.
At the beginning, I'd liked the barchetta page very much, so much information, but 90% Ferraris and allways the same cars. But now they are cardealers and are trying to push the prices even higher.
How could it work, that they do a Report about a Racing day, writing, that there participated an Tipo 33 Stradale and not one single pic. How many Stradales are in Europe?
Best information has ultimatecarpage, best Pics supercars.net, lots of american cars conceptcarz, french cars, gt dreams and at last traumautoarchiv.de. Its difficult with english cars, and german cars hardly exists.
I think, most of the important cars are in the US, but the americans like to take pictures only from common cars. And there are so many important collections, like Miles Collier's, or Fred Simeone's.
I'm triying to find some good pics of the Boano Alfa 6C 3000 CM and there is nothing, the same with the Boano 1900.

But lets go back to the SF Cars.
Many 8C 2300 were raced by the Scuderia Ferrari, the Monza was only in 1931 a front Runner. With the appearence of the Bugatti 51 and the Maserati 8CM its changed. In 1932 Alfa made the P3 and and Ferrari had to use, after Alfas withdrawn from GP Racing, the bored out version of the Monza. Later he got the P3s and he used the Monza for Sportscar Racing. Were there so much difference between the Zagato-Touring Spiders and the Monzas?
Apart the 8C were so expensive, so it was hard to sell, worst the 8C 2900. In the same period Bugatti sold about 700 Type 57 and this was not a sports car. Was it nationalism?
France was the richest Country in Europe after WW I and England wasn't very affected by the great depression, but had strange Rules for sportscar Racing and banned very early the Blower from Racing. So why Ferrari started to built in 1934 more Monzas and against the Silver Arrows more P3s?
No one can tell, there was a market for Racingcars and most of the Racing Car manufacturer broke.(Ballot, Rolland-Pilain, Delage,Talbot, Aston Martin, Sunbeam and Bentley, to name a few), even Alfa Romeo only survived thanks to Mussolini (Ferrari Connection?). Bugatti survived, thanks to the French State (Railcars) and Maserati with sparkplugs.

Somebody have some answers?
Jörg

The Boano 1900 coupe is in southern California and is owned by Al Cortes. The last time I saw it, it was still unrestored. The Boano 6c300CM coupe started out as one of the LeMans/MM coupes. Henry Wessells owned the car as the Boano, and crashed it while vintage racing in the 1980s. He had it rebodied by Diamonte in Italy back to the Le Mans body, and vintage raced it. He sold it a few years ago. Gulp models is working on a miniature of the 6c300CM Boano. No one has done a miniature of the Alfa 1900 Boano as yet. The car looks like a big 750 series giulietta coupe! There are photos of the Boano 1900 in the 1900 book done about 15 years ago. There are some photos of the 6c3000CM Boano in the Disco Volante book...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
161 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
I have had the fortune to drive 4 different 8c2900s in my life; the LeMans coupe, the Mille Miglia spider now owned by Ralph Lauren, the 1947 Mille Miglia winner (but with the blower put back on; it ran the 1947MM with four 1bbl sidedraft carbs), and one of the Touring spiders. All were different from each other. The LeMans coupe was LOUD. You wouldn't want to drive it without earplugs. The 1938 MM car was the most fun, but the LeMans car probably has a higher top speed. The 1947 Mille Miglia winner seemed bigger and slower, but not much. The Touring bodied "street" car was similar, but not quite as agile, as the 1938 MM car.

As far as pre-war GP cars, I have driven a T35 Bugatti, and an Alfa Tipo B. I want to drive the Bimotore REAL bad, even though it is a "replicar" I also wouldn't mind a drive in a Mercedes 125, 154 or 163, or an Auto Union... :)
Thanks
I have a list even longer. I would like to know, how were the cars with these massive 4 cylinder longstroke Engines. I have most experience with the Delahaye, crossing many times the Andes to Argentina and back. Streets like in the 30th. Absolutely fantastic. It has better roadholding than a Jaguar XK 140 even better than my old ex Maserati Vignale Spider. The big difference are the brakes. The Bugatti is fun to drive, but hurts my back very much (to hard) and start to boil water very fast. The greatest problem is, this car is so small and my feets are so big, but the sound and the noise. What a car.
I've read twice test drives of the Mercedes W 154. Absolutely frighting. Wheelspin in Top Gear, when the Blower comes alive. Don't want to know how goes the W 125.
Imagine Carracciola with 420 km at the Autobahn, Madman Nuvolari with the Bimotore behind and Rosemeyer, the synthesis of both in the Auto Union. We have to invent a Car for Chiron, he's missing. Or Frank Lockhat, in his Miller V16 Special. Times for Heroes, long gone, but never forgotten.
Jörg
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
6,139 Posts
Thanks
I have a list even longer. I would like to know, how were the cars with these massive 4 cylinder longstroke Engines. I have most experience with the Delahaye, crossing many times the Andes to Argentina and back. Streets like in the 30th. Absolutely fantastic. It has better roadholding than a Jaguar XK 140 even better than my old ex Maserati Vignale Spider. The big difference are the brakes. The Bugatti is fun to drive, but hurts my back very much (to hard) and start to boil water very fast. The greatest problem is, this car is so small and my feets are so big, but the sound and the noise. What a car.
I've read twice test drives of the Mercedes W 154. Absolutely frighting. Wheelspin in Top Gear, when the Blower comes alive. Don't want to know how goes the W 125.
Imagine Carracciola with 420 km at the Autobahn, Madman Nuvolari with the Bimotore behind and Rosemeyer, the synthesis of both in the Auto Union. We have to invent a Car for Chiron, he's missing. Or Frank Lockhat, in his Miller V16 Special. Times for Heroes, long gone, but never forgotten.
Jörg

What is sad is these times ARE forgotten by many racing enthusiasts today. The only know of the 1960s and newer.. :(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
161 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Thank you for Help

Hi,
Thanks to Tim its getting clearer now. I was wrong in my thinking, that Ferrari built all the SF cars apart of the Series. It seems, that Ferrati used the SF suffix for every car, which the Scuderia used to race. Hope that Tim will send me more information.

SF-24 = 8C 2600 Monza #?
SF-25 = 8C 2600 Monza #?
SF-28 = 8C 2600 Monza #? Klaus Werner
SF-30 = 8C 2600 Monza #?
SF-32 = 8C 2600 Monza #?
SF-33 = Tipo B #5006
SF-44 = Tipo B #50004 Klaus Werner
SF-45A = Tipo B #50005 Jon Shirley
SF-46 = Tipo B #50006
SF-48 = Bimotore Donington Collection
SF-51 = 8C 2900 A #412.001 renumbered #412.008 according to Moore
missing
SF-52 = 8C 2900 A #412.002 renumbered #412.007 Simon Moore
SF-53 = 8C 2900 A #412.003 Botticella Spider
SF-54 = 8C 2900 A #412.004 renumbered #412.006 Paul Grist
SF-64 = Tipo 8C-35 #50011 Frame #8
SF-78 = Tipo 308 GP #50017 ex Oscar Galvez Fangio Museum

I hope we can find some more cars, to complete the list and to lift the darkness of Alfa Romeo History.

Jörg
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
6,139 Posts
I didn't realize the SF numbers went that high! I thought they stopped around #45 or 50. They probably include the 8c2900As, the 8c35s and even the 12c36 GP cars!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
899 Posts
This must be one of the first SF Cars. Maybe Varzis Targa Florio P2. Any Information and some more pics?
I would be surprised if it were. The SF became an official Alfa racing department from 1933 on. This P2 was bought back by Alfa (not SF) from private hands for the official entries in 1930, and as far as I recall never entered by the SF. It wears a quadrifoglio, not a prancing horse (btw shown 1st time on the 1932 8C2300s that won the 24h of Spa).

Also my understanding is that some 8C Monzas built by SF from spares carried only the SF number and no Alfa VIN (according to Moore's Legendary 2.3). In other cases, they had a VIN and over that the SF number.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
899 Posts
the 8c35s and even the 12c36 GP cars!
Same frames for the two models you quote (and furthermore developped into 308s in some cases), so, yes, of course. It means that even the 308s, being older, recycled frames and chassis, did wear SF numbers, even if Ferrari was then head of Alfa Corse and SF the mere customer racing department from January 1st 1938.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
6,139 Posts
Same frames for the two models you quote (and furthermore developped into 308s in some cases), so, yes, of course. It means that even the 308s, being older, recycled frames and chassis, did wear SF numbers, even if Ferrari was then head of Alfa Corse and SF the mere customer racing department from January 1st 1938.
I'm thinking the first cars that DIDN'T have SF numbers were the 12c37 "low line" GP cars. A P2 SHOULDN'T have a SF number (unless stamped circa 1929-1930), as SF didn't start until 1929..
 
1 - 20 of 78 Posts
Top