Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hello everyone,
we need your help!

We own a 1969 Alfa Romeo Spider 1750 Iniezione (Spica Injection) that will start but then die. The engine starts almost immediately and goes up to about 1100rpm and then it dies.
Does anyone know what our Problem could be? We have tried almost everything and are out of ideas. This car just won't run.

We have changed all filters, the fuel tank and lines, the coil, spark plugs and our Spica pump has been rebuilt. We set the ignition timing and checked the pump for correct timing. As the engine starts, you can smell that it is getting enough gas (not too much) and the throttle setting has been checked as well.
We tried setting the ignition timing, checked all connections and lines and did everything as written in Wes Ingram's Book and other Alfa Manuals.

Maybe @Roadtrip has any ideas?

Thanks in Advance.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
17,617 Posts
While I know little about SPICA, I'll ask a question that might help (and, even if it does not it will bump your post up so maybe someone who does know will see it...).

Does your car have an electronic or mechanical tach? An electronic tach works off a signal from the coil. If it has an electronic tach watch what it does as the engine runs then dies. If the needle drops and then the engine dies the issue is likely ignition related. If the needle reads as the engine dies it is likely fuel related.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
It has a mechanical tach. We tested every part in the ignition system. Everything should be good. It must have something to do with the fuel but we are not exactly sure why it seems to be getting not enough fuel. Because the pump and the injectors were rebuilt, everything should be alright there. (It ran bad but it did before a lot was rebuilt. Thank you for your reply!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,352 Posts
Do you still have the original 69 1750 spica pump installed? A T237/1? They are different than the rest and it would be good to know if that's what we are talking about. Almost sounds like it's running just on the cold start solenoid but I don't know if you have one of those. Did this just happen all of a sudden, after storage, or? Is your fuel pressure light going on then off when you first turn the key on?

Cheers,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
@vintagemilano : It is an original 1750 Spica Pump from '69. The fuel pressure light goes off and stays off after turning the key. The car is in the process of rebuilding but was in storage before. It didn't work as it should that's why we had our pump rebuilt. We have a CSS which is working and yes, it seems like it is just running on the solenoid although the pump was rebuilt pretty recently.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
What would you say which fuel supply pump should be installed? I heard that 15-20psi are perfect but another source says that you should never have more than 17psi because otherwise the Pressure Relieve Valve on the front fuel filter is always open. Our current (new) pump has about 14,5psi and seems to be working just fine. Any suggestions what would be good? Do you think that could be a problem or even the only one?
no one was able to tell us so far what pressure would be best.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,352 Posts
Hi there, go to this post and get the fuel supply diagnostic guide by roadtrip, it will give you all you need to know about fuel pressure. Though 14.5 sounds great.
Are you doing the work yourself or is a shop doing this. It's seeming like something went sideways on reinstall of the rebuilt pump so things that attach to it would be worth double checking. Did it get a rebuilt thermostatic actuator at the same time? Are the fuel hoses backwards? Throttle plates are totally closed and idle air hoses are not blocked? Can you keep it running after it initially revs up? What poor running conditions were the cause of choosing to get the pump rebuilt?

Cheers,
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
@vintagemilano : Thanks, we already have the fuel supply diagnostic guide by roadtrip. We are doing the work ourselves. Everything should be alright with the reinstall of the pump. We have double-checked everything. We got a rebuilt TA just recently from Wes Ingram. The fuel hoses have just been renewed and are not on backwards. Throttle plates are totally closed and idle air hoses are not blocked, correct. No, we can not keep it running (other then "pumping" the gas pedal but that is awful). The car was in storage for 13 years and alfa mechanics messed things up with the pump. The TA was broken and it did things like hunting (and else). We started to replace a lot of parts that can cause trouble and decided to get the pump rebuilt mainly because we were getting way too much gas in our oil.
 

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
10,641 Posts
Put a tee in the fuel line between the main filter/regulator and the Spica pump. Install a pressure gauge in the leg of the Tee.

After turning the key to “on”, have someone watch the gauge, insuring it is somewhere between 14-19.

Start the car. Have someone watch the gauge to see what it does leading up to the engine shut-down. If the pressure falls prior to engine shut down, you know your problem is between the tank and the regulator. If the pressure holds prior to shut down, it’s either the Spica pump or ignition.

I thought 69s did not have a CSS. If it does, your pump could be failed in some way, and you’re running on the CSS until you stop cranking the starter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
We do have enough pressure and we do know now that it is not just running on the CSS. We are looking for the problem somewhere in the ignition system.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
266 Posts
Hot wire the coil to remove the ign switch. That should keep the car running if the ign system is ok. also turn all of the fuses in the fuse box as they may also be making poor contact. Also when you installed the repaired I/F pump was it set up per Wes 's book? Good luck
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
747 Posts
The most likely cause is a stuck Fuel cut-off device. This is activated on deceleration. If its a later electronic FCS type pump 71-up, un-hook the white wire at the micro switch and it should be fine. If it is the correct early "69 only" mechanical FC device, try turning the knurled know CCW a few turns and see if it un-sticks. Good luck. Ohhhh make sure the pump belt isn't broken.
RML
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
The Pump was reinstalled per Wes' Book. We have tried the fuel cut off option but that wasn't it either. The screw is just fine. We are located in Bavaria, Germany.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter #15
Also, all fuses have good contact and the pump belt isn't broken. The pump timing is set correctly as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,977 Posts
I just read your other thread about the fast idle. I think that you should go back to step 1 in the tuning process and do everything over again. My guess is that the long and short rods are not set correctly, or have the plastic rod ends cracked and the rod threads slipping in the rod ends.

About 4mm of spacers under the T/A should bring it back into specification for the 1969 model injection pump.

If you don't have the factory Spica manuals and other tech data, let me know and I can send electronic copies of them to you. They are English language versions, however.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
@Roadtrip. Thank you for your reply!
The plastic ends are not cracked or worn out but we will be re-doing all that just to be sure there are no other issues.
Good to know that 4mm is what we need for the TA to be Factory like! We were trying to figure that out.

We do have guides and Books from Wes, used Info that you provided and original shop books and Fuel Injection guides. However, it would be great if you could send us the literature that you have because maybe there is more helpful info that we don't have yet.

Thanks again!

Dennis
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
266 Posts
Each TA height may be different between cars. The height needs to be set after the car is at running temp. The clearance between the long rod arm at the pump, while the rod is disconnected from the throttle arm, should be about .019 inches of clearance i believe. Good Luck
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,680 Posts
Have you tried spraying starter fluid after the initial start? If it continues to run then it would suggest fuel starvation. I would disconnect the fuel return line at the filter and verify that there is fuel flow.

From memory ( ie, suspect) the '69 SPICA pump fuel cut off screw is capable of being forced beyond the yoke. When that happens no amount of adjusting will change the fuel. You might want to check that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28 Posts
What about compression in your motor. I'm just saying check to see if your rings are no good. Otherwise if it's all on you to set this injection up you picked a doosie to learn on. I have the exact same system and just lucky for me I guess it got set up by a professional. Once it set you can just forget about it cause it works great. Don't forget about the oil filter for the Fuel injection. Gotta change it every oil change.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top