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Here in this case the first page of FIA 1576 Group 2 GTAm.
Check the dates minima di 1000 esemplari ....
minimum of 1000 copies
raggiunta il 31 Iuglio 1969
reached 31 July 1969
Omologazione valida dal 1.10 1969
Approval valid from 1.10 1969
Have to have made them first then homologated in this case.
 

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Interesting to know that FIA still lists a number of Alfas which have homologation extensions
45069 31.12.2028 D-6328 Alfa Romeo 1750 GTAm 1576 G2 CT19
 

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As I understand the car should be homologated in 1000 pieces. Alfa Romeo in a case of 1750 GTAm homologated american version. FIA rep visited the factory and counted them or received the paper work confirmed the production.

Then there is a list of options or racing parts if we want to be clear. To homologate them every part was made in 100 pieces. They just made them and FIA rep counted them. These parts were not mounted on the cars

Read page 67 of the 1970 Appendix J
https://historicdb.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulations/1437743288/appendix_j_1970.pdf

There were no production of 1750/2000 GTV with light weight parts, it was not necessary for the homologation purposes. However based on Appendix J options were available freely at the manufacturer’s or his
dealers’ for any one wishing to purchase it. It must be mentioned in the manufacturer's catalogue of spare parts for the model concerned and properly identified.


This is the reason why every racing part had own number matching to manufacturer spare parts name structure. And this is the reason why they appeared in a special racing parts catalogs, and some of them in regular spare parts catalogs

I do not think it was an option to order 1750 with racing parts from the factory. There were no supply chain for this. Parts could be supplied separately but not mounted on the car. Also it was not mentioned in Appendix J. it was told that racing parts should should be available from spare parts catalogs. It is not mentioned that they should be available for ordering and mounting on the new car from the factory. It was the main point of new rules, parts could be made just in 100 pcs, otherwise they needed to homologate almost a racing car how it was with a Group B (200 cars for the homologation and 20 cars for Evolutions)

I attached a scan from QR where written that for the homologation parts were made in 100 pcs. Also Chiti mentioned that the cost of GTAm (about 7 mln lira) could be much less if the car was made in a small series.
 

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Here is another reference, showing both GTV and GTAm could use aluminum doors and deck lid (boot) as per FIA Group 2, which is as per what I was saying, but now with even more confidence.
Cheers Steve
 

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As I understand the car should be homologated in 1000 pieces. Alfa Romeo in a case of 1750 GTAm homologated american version. FIA rep visited the factory and counted them or received the paper work confirmed the production.
Then there is a list of options or racing parts if we want to be clear. To homologate them every part was made in 100 pieces. They just made them and FIA rep counted them. These parts were not mounted on the cars
Hi Max,
Only problem with your argument was that the homologation document of 1000 cars under FIA 1576/3/2V which mentions alloy doors and deck lid. This means 1000 doors left and right each and 1000 deck lids, not the minimum of 100 as per rules but 1000 each as per homologation. You could order the car with the alloy parts from the factory, one of 1000 cars I think!
Cheers Steve
 

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Hi Max,
Only problem with your argument was that the homologation document of 1000 cars under FIA 1576/3/2V which mentions alloy doors and deck lid. This means 1000 doors left and right each and 1000 deck lids, not the minimum of 100 as per rules but 1000 each as per homologation. You could order the car with the alloy parts from the factory, one of 1000 cars I think!
Cheers Steve
Steve, please read Appendix J :)

aa) Optional equipment which may be recognized with a minimum production of 100 units per year to equip 100 cars :

Lightweight coachwork elements, such as aluminium doors, plexiglass lateral windows, glass fibre engine bonnets, etc. Nevertheless, the basic weight of the car mentioned on the recognition form shall not be modified.
The recognition of lightweight elements is only meant to compensate the manufacturing tolerances and the fitting of some optional equipment which results in an increase of the basic weight.

bb) Optional equipment which may be recognized without a minimum production :
Different dashboard.
— Protection shields under the car provided they do not decrease in a significant way the aerodynamic drag of the car.
Wing extensions, aesthetically acceptable, provided they do not entail an increase of the width of the wings of more than 5 cm on each side of the car. Measurement is to be done at the vertical going through the centre of the wheel hubs.
— Brakes of different type and/or dimensions, which may include larger hubs
and spindles.
cc) Any other option affecting directly or Indirectly the performance of the car cannot be recognized unless 1,000 identical cars equipped with this option have been manufactured in 12 consecutive months.

So, Lightweight coachwork elements could be made in a quantity of 100 per year and as it mentioned in chapter cc it was not necessary to mount them on the cars. Lightweight dashboards and wing extensions could be made in even less quantities then 100 per year!


P.S. The most interesting that performance parts catalog existed for the USA only. I think it means USA customers could order parts from dealers network. I have never seen a similar catalog for Italy/Germany or any other European country where Alfa Romeo used the most in competition. I think to get the parts private racing teams contacted Autodelta directly and never used a dealers network as a source of racing parts.
 

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Hi Max,
You are talking about business processes, supply chains of Alfa, is there a source document you are referring from please list.
I am talking about documents that were used at the time so facts.
Your interpretation of 100 implies a maximum of 100, but it was only a minimum of 100, as in 1970 Alfa chose to make 1000 cars as per homologation FIA 1576/3/2V. May be some one at FIA could give us their interpretation. Does any one have a contact in FIA?
Regards Steve
 

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Steve,
Cars homologation and parts homologation are two different processes.

You actually think Autodelta made 100 and later 1000 GTAm cars equipped with all homologated options?

May I ask you, do you understand that automakers homologated just regular cars, taken from conveyor, and then produced racing parts. Cars and parts are not connected to each other. They are different homologation processes.

Sent from my Z957 using Tapatalk
 

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PS: Steve, please don't take this the wrong way. I'm just having some fun with it. I don't know one way or the other. But, I've been around 105.51 GTVs a LOT, and I've never seen or heard of any coming from the factory with aluminum body components. I don't think they exist. This, coming from 50 years of observation.... just saying
Have to agree.

Homologation was so you could purchase the parts*. They did not have to sell cars with these parts already installed (even though they already had in the form of the earlier GTAs anyway, so maybe they used this loop hole. Heck Enzo Ferrari was famous for finding homologation loop holes, until the FIA slapped him down with the 250 LM). So yeah I assume many GTAms were upgraded for the 1970 season, but no 1750 GTV road cars were ordered and assembled with these alloy doors, boot lids and bonnets. Could have been, but even then it would have likely been dealer installed, not Milano factory installed.

* example of homologation permitting purchase of said parts but Alfa never sold a production car with it is the GTAm cylinder head. Yes GTAm's were built with these heads but they never rolled out of the Alfa Romeo factory with them, they were bought via the Racing catalogue.
Pete
 

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I don’t know if this could be interpreted as elucidation but let us return to the initial post. The question was if there were 1750 GTV cars, factory delivered with lightened or changed parts. Well the answer is simple: No. The 1750 GTV version 105.51, produced from ’68-’70, was FIA homologated when already produced in 2476 examples, and due for its injection system selected by Autodelta (no need to produce 1000 cars for homologation purposes) for racing elaborations. Reasons were several: the car was based on already proven and successful 105.32 model with similar handling and developed dynamic behaviour, and engine was suitable for further improvement in its class (2000 cc). In the first instance the initial homologation (1 October 1969) the changes were just few (wheels of 7’’ and engine displacement of 2000cc), and only with second homologation (1 January 1970) it became known version of GT Am with visible changes in its exterior look also. The version tested in occasion of November race in Hockenheim, with 1750 (Schultze) was decidedly not lightened, nor it was the GT 2000 shown in Tour de Corse, where the 2000 cc narrow head engine was tested for the first time. In 1970, in occasion of Monza race, the car was presented in its lightened form with Peraluman doors and luggage space cover (from GTA), fiberglass bonnet and fiberglass fenders (front and rear) and Plexiglas windows (except windshield), but on its original steel chassis and rest of the body (roof included). The weight was reduced to 780 kg and engine with Lucas injection (instead of SPICA in original version) produced 235 CV. To obtain such elaboration, numerous parts were homologated, produced (but after homologation of the car), and included in tuning options catalogue (only in English, good observation) available on request from Autodelta (also Alfa Romeo factory, but parts were distributed by Autodelta exclusively). There was no factory delivery of completed of partially produced cars with optional parts already fixed. Elaboration was left to private execution or made at Autodelta at desired degree, but ‘in situ’, or sold as completely finished ‘racing’ version delivered as GT Am. The car in its competition form was extremely efficient, and to limit its superiority, under British pression, in FIA appendix J for 1971 it was reintroduced original 1750 weight that was 200 kg heavier, than actual racing version, and the car arrived at its new official weight of 980 kg. Even in that form, GT Am was highly competitive, but necessity to produce and use lightened parts was significantly limited. The use of lightened parts was contemplated only in function to compensate major weight of added parts (safety cage introduced as obligatory, DRC system, 120 litre fuel tank and so on…). That’s why the possibility of having this mixed (production-competition) coachwork is unlikely, beside impossibility to make similar order to factory. It is underlined here that completed final product and option parts were two separate fields. Existence of homologated parts was not connected in any way to production version and you were obliged to buy and fix yourself desired part if you wanted it. In theory, one could produce all alloy version of 1750, put 245 CV engine in it and with its 680 kg, (FIA rules allowed it) inscribe it in Group 6 to compete with Porsche 908, 33 Daytona or Matra 630. You can imagine results of similar car against this listed (remember ‘open’ competition and possibilities of Turismo group 2, 4, or even 5 cars vs Prototypes), and ibid, the reason for such (not cheap) experiment. Australian non-FIA fantasy produced, it is true, some experiments like V8 engine in 105 chassis, jet or steam propelled GTAs, but that doesn’t mean that it was also the general way of considering car elaboration for racing elsewhere.
 

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As I understand one of the main reasons to homologate 1750 GTAm was to move to Group 2 from Group 4 to avoid competition with Porsche 911. Basically 1600 GTA did not have enough space in the back to be homologated as 4 seats car.
1750 GTV (GTAm) in the beginning of 1970 got modified rear seats and was homologated as Group 2 car.
 

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The 1969 Tour de Corse cars were full alloy GTAjunior chassis not GT with the earlier flares and 8x14 wheels.

The version tested in occasion of November race in Hockenheim, with 1750 (Schultze) was decidedly not lightened, nor it was the GT 2000 shown in Tour de Corse, where the 2000 cc narrow head engine was tested for the first time.
 

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The version tested in occasion of November race in Hockenheim, with 1750 (Schultze) was decidedly not lightened, nor it was the GT 2000 shown in Tour de Corse, where the 2000 cc narrow head engine was tested for the first time.
I do not know if it is true or not, but I read that in 1968 s/n 613997 got 1905cc engine with two hydraulic chargers, dry sump, testa stretta head and monosleeve block. It had 315-325 HP at 7800rpm. It also received multilink suspension from TZ2. The weight of the car - 730 kg, max speed 270 km/h

The source was here. The original text is gone but I have a copy
http://www.enzogiobbe.com/sportphoto4a.html

I never got that SA2, but I did get to drive it at Autodelta's Balocco track.

Chiti told me the car weighed in at 730 kilos, and the engine output was between 315 and 325CV (depending on the compression ratio) @ 7800 rpm.

This GTAP/SA2 had a modified TZ independent rear suspension setup and the narrow head, mono sleeve dry sump motor. I seem to remember it had the guillotine injection intake, but I'm not sure of that fact.

It certainly was quite a car in both looks and engineering. Great handling, fantastic braking, and very, very quick, with no lag. I pegged it at 270 km/h.

It had the exact same plastica parts my GTAP has (doors, hood, deck, and Plexiglas windows all around), along with a most unique (for then) rear spoiler/deck that unfortunately, was non-operational on the day of my drive.

The plastica rear deck had two hydraulic cylinders attached to a metal frame molded into the deck that was supposed to raise the deck at speed (I have no idea how it was activated or engaged).

So in effect, it was an active aero wing system made to look like the stock GTA rear deck when at rest. Quite exotic and clever for its time.

That SA2 deck may have just been one of Chiti's many "gee whiz" designs that didn't actually work, but sure as hell really impressed everybody.

Carlo Chiti was quite the innovator and a real character as well. Had he let me purchase that car, it would still be around for race car enthusiasts to enjoy and marvel at. Yet another piece of Alfa racing history lost forever.

Update: I've since learned that this special "works project car" was chassis number 613997, and was a special one-off build by Alfa Romeo for Autodelta after the normal GTA production run was completed. It was built for FIA Gp 5.

The car was dismantled in 1969 and rebuilt as a NA 1.6L GTA/P. It was then used for the FIA Plastica parts Homologation as a "1970 Giulia GTA".

Supposedly, this car caught on fire at Autodelta in 1971. There is no further history attached to that chassis number from that point on that I know of.
 

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I will accept that variations in homologations may be treated differently to the original homologation.
The steps of homologation were the factory produce the 1000 quantity and then got homologation, this is a 'fact' and is backed up by Fusi's numbers.
31st July 1969 Alfa Factory claimed 1000 cars produced for FIA 1576 Group 2 Turismo.
Production figures 1750 GT Veloce as per Fusi, pages 843..
1967 qty 919
1968 qty 146
1969 qty 639 subtotal for 1967+ 68+ half 1969 = 919+146 + 320 = 1385 cars even more than 1000 cars the factory claimed!
You could use 1967 and 68 production figures and you had 1065 cars, still over 1000 cars.

This leaves
At the end of
1970 qty 518
1971 qty 1150
1972 qty 17
Total of 3389 cars
Back to the original document FIA 1576 Group 2
not a complete list of items
Variations 'V'
Date 1.1.70 2/1V : ZF steering box
Date 1.1.70 3/2V : Alloy doors and trunk, 100L fuel tank, brakes, motor, injection.
Date 1.4.70 5/3V : Plastic bumper bars
Date 1.10.70 6/4V : ?
Date 1.1.71 7/5V : Piston rods
Date 1.7.71 8/6V : Brake discs
Evolution 'E'
Date 1.1.70 1/1E : Wide bodied flairs
Date 1.4.70 4/2E : Tandem brakes

It's not clear if variation V or evolution E meant another 1000 cars or a total of 1000 cars with the features.

'ARGTAReg' Existence of homologated parts was not connected in any way to production version and you were obliged to buy and fix yourself desired part if you wanted it.
So what are you saying? If I wanted the seats as shown in the previous photo I have to what go and get them from Autodelta, I don't thinks so.

I am asking where are the documents you are using what do the words means 'variation' 'evolution' to get an idea of what happened.
I still think you could order a GTV 1750 with alloy doors and bootlid (and those nice seats!) from the factory, and drive out the show room floor.
With safety aspects of racing taking on more momentum in 1972, roll cages were required. The fibre glass doors were no longer allowed from 1.1.1972, by that time it did not matter for the GTV 1750 as it was over only 17 cars were made in 1972
Cheers Steve
 

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I still think you could order a GTV 1750 with alloy doors and bootlid (and those nice seats!) from the factory, and drive out the show room floor.
Cheers Steve
Yes I accept this but what would have happened is your dealer would have ordered a completely steel 1750 GTV, and 2 alloy doors, and a boot lid. He would have sent the brand new doors and boot lid down the road to his trusted car painter and got them painted to match your brand new car and then had one of mechanics remove the steel doors and boot lid, bolt on the alloy stuff and rung you up and said "your car is ready".

Alfa Romeo did not produce the car like this, other than the rear seat, which is what all 1750 GTV rear seats look like, i.e. it was not just a racing change but a change made to the 105 series with the 1750 model so there was slightly more leg room in the back. This change was not so people with legs could sit in the back but to move the 1750 GTV into a different racing class. I'm sure other manufacturers occasionally do things like this too, but it is part of the Alfa story, i.e. basically the GTA was being given a decisive beating by the 911 Porsche so lets make the current GTV a proper 4 seater so not in the same class. Cheaper than producing TZ2s in GTA quantities :)

So again the alloy parts were variations to the signed FIA homologation for the 1750 GTV, and we all agree that Alfa Romeo never ever produced a run of 1000, or even 10, or heck even a single 1 with these parts already attached as it left the Milano or Paris factory.
Pete
ps: I wonder what happened to all those steel doors and boot lids originally hanging on GTAm's that were removed ... probably sitting in the back of Autodelta's old workshop somewhere in perfect condition ...
 
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Pete
If GTA's are going down the production line at Arese, why are you telling me GTV's with alloy doors and boot lid were not also going down the production line?
Where were the alloy parts? At the factory so they can be installed. Where is the car painted correctly ? at the factory with the alloy parts all ready on it!
As I mentioned before the FIA homologation of 1750 GTAm group 2 is still valid. May be FIA can enlighten us.
Cheers Steve
 
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