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Hello fine gentlemen,

A while ago, I remembered reading a post where it was mentionned that some NON GTA cars were produced at the end of the 105 series with Aluminium parts.

I do believe that a 1750 GTV was mentionned in the post and was located in Canada.

Can any of you remember this. Better, if you have first hand experience with “regular” 105/115 series built by the factory with aluminium doors, trunk and bonnet, could you please share your stories?

Thank you very much for any info you may have!

Cheers
 

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Hello fine gentlemen,

A while ago, I remembered reading a post where it was mentionned that some NON GTA cars were produced at the end of the 105 series with Aluminium parts.

I do believe that a 1750 GTV was mentionned in the post and was located in Canada.

Can any of you remember this. Better, if you have first hand experience with “regular” 105/115 series built by the factory with aluminium doors, trunk and bonnet, could you please share your stories?

Thank you very much for any info you may have!

Cheers
Never heard of such a car, Ladislas.

Ciao, Olaf
 

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Untrue myth by the sounds of it

Pete
 

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But definitly we bought 4 GTA doors 1981 and they had the inner parts for the new window slider!!!! we realised about 30 years later , when we took one of them to restore an GTA!!!
 
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It's worth mentioning that GTA (105.32) parts both engine, drive train, and bodywork were listed in the 105 parts book. For that matter, so were TI Super (105.16) parts. Parts for both cars were available from factory stocks and could be easily purchased from Alfa. I was importing (on a very small scale) performance parts from Italy during the early 70's and was surprised at what was actually sitting on Alfa's shelves. It's entirely possible that someone with an interest in doing so could have fitted out a 1750 with aluminum panels and sundry other items. There were certainly people in various parts of the world with the knowledge and expertise to build such a car. AUSCA, where a young Gordon Raymond worked, produced some very interesting round-tail spiders which were fitted out with complete GTA engines and running gear. Someone who may have some useful information on this is Matt Jones at ReOriginals. Matt was in Italy at the time and was well connected with Alfa parts sources, both from the factory and Italian aftermarket.
 
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That's very interesting, 180. Do you suppose a 105.51 was ever fitted with aluminum? I have a couple of Retail Parts Books to look up the parts numbers. I think the Competition Handbook had parts numbers too. (-99 suffux numbers.) Do you suppose the 105.51 sitting in my garage could have been originally fitted with aluminum, then some unknowing person replaced the aluminum with steel. (Leaving me in the position of having to refit aluminum panel only restore it for "Originality" . Would you believe . . .
 
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The youngest of 105 cars in the US is 52 years old now. A lot can have happened. The reserve happened, a GTA Jr for sale at Rapley some years ago had steel front fenders according to the seller and a former owner. Probably an expedient race-car repair with parts that were at hand?

Get the Dasse Arese book to see period pics of the assembly line, and the GT book which covers GTAs also. I have trouble believing there'd be a reason, or easy method, to graft alum fenders onto an otherwise steel GTV. Maybe over at Autodelta, etc, but on the production line? I realize they made GTAs there too.

Andrew
 

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Parts interchanges were available straight out of the Alfa parts book. If you had a part number you could order just about anything you wanted. I doubt that the period modifications that resulted were actual factory approved commercial activities. That, of course, never stopped Alfisti from building hot rods, either in period or now.

It sure would be interesting to know of any of those AUSCA speicals are still around. They were definitely built in the spirit of the Italian Conrero specials. I first came across one parked on the street near my university in about '69 or so. It was a dark blue round-tail with GTA mags (unusual at the time) lowered suspension and, if it was what I think it was, a GTA engine, close ratio gearbox and GTA suspension.
 
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Front panel for a flat nose was not made by Alfa Romeo out of aluminium ... so you could not have done this with genuine panels (unless you somehow riveted the steel nose to the alloy guards. Unlike the almost hidden rivets of a GTA these would be very visible in front of the front wheels).

It's just a myth, likely created over a beer or 2 ?
Pete
 
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You really need to examine what the FIA rules were at the time and consider if it was possible to set the car up with alloy panels in the day. Since we are discussing the 1750 GTV.

Here is some details from the 1968 FIA Appendix J
Category A
Group 1: Series production: Touring (Min quantity 5,000)
Group 2: Touring cars (Min quantity 1,000)
Group 3: Grand Touring (GT) (Min quantity 500) [FIA 599 GTV]
Group 4: Sports Cars (Min quantity 50)

Category B
Group 5: Special touring cars (Min quantity 1)
Art. 267. - Definition and specifications: vehicles deriving
from cars recognized in groups 1 and 2, of which they have
kept the original coachwork, but which have been submitted to
modifications and/or additions not authorized under articles 257
Group 6: Prototype Sports cars (Min quantity 1)

Here is some details from the 1969 FIA Appendix J
Category A
Group 1: Series production: Touring (Min quantity 5,000)
Group 2: Touring cars (Min quantity 1,000) [FIA 1576: GT Am, and FIA 1565: GTV]
Group 3: Grand Touring (GT) (Min quantity 500) [FIA 1565/1/G 500 cars]
Group 4: Sports Cars (Min quantity 25)

Category B
Group 5: Special touring cars (Min quantity 1)
Neither the shape nor the original materials of the standard coachwork may be modified, the chassis may be reinforced but not lightened or cut.
Group 6: Prototype Sports cars (Min quantity 1)
Prototype sports cars must be fitted with a double braking
system such as specified under.

Rules changed for 1970/71 FIA Appendix J
Category A
Group 1: Series production: Touring (Min quantity 5,000)
Group 2: Special touring cars (Min quantity 1,000) [FIA 1576/3/2V GTAm] [FIA 1565/3/3E GTV]
see page 67:
z) Recognition of an option: the recognition of an option will be granted only if the optional equipment is available freely at the manufacturer’s or his dealers’ for any one wishing to purchase it. It must be mentioned in the manufacturer's catalogue of spare parts for the model concerned and properly identified.
aa) Optional equipment which may be recognized with a minimum production of 100 units per year to equip 100 cars:
....
Nevertheless,
...
— Lightweight coachwork elements, such as aluminum doors, plexiglass lateral windows, glass fibre engine bonnets, etc. Nevertheless, the basic weight of the car mentioned on the recognition form shall not be modified. The recognition of light weight elements is only meant to compensate the manufacturing tolerances and the fitting of some optional equipment which results in an increase of the basic weight.
Group 3: series-production grand touring cars (Min quantity 500 to 1,000)
Group 4: special grand touring cars (Min quantity 500)
Group 5 : sports cars (Min quantity 25).
Art. 269.—Conditions required for recognition : the 25 cars shall be identical as regards the following points:
a) Coachwork: general line, materials of construction, shape of wings and bonnet, number of doors. Small modifications will be allowed when made necessary by the different uses of the car (circuit or road events),

Category B : experimental competition cars
Group 6 : prototype-sports cars. (Min quantity 1)
Furthermore, prototype sports cars must be fitted with a double braking system such as specified under Art. 269 f, and be equipped with safety fuel tanks of an FIA approved type (Art. 272).

What does it all mean for each year?
Documents
1968 to 69: Group 3 1750 FIA 599 [ 500 Cars]
1969: Group 2: Touring cars (Min quantity 1,000 cars) [FIA 1576: GT Am, and FIA 1565: GTV]
1969: Group 3 FIA 1565/1/G 500 cars
1970: Group 2 [FIA 1576/3/2V GTAm 1000 cars {alloy doors and boot lid}] FIA 1565/3/3E
1970/71: Group 2: FIA Rules: Special touring cars. If factory made full alloy bodies as Optional equipment which may be recognized with a minimum production of 100 units per year to equip 100 cars, other wise just Lightweight coachwork elements, such as aluminum doors,
OR
1970/71: Group 2: FIA Rules: Special touring cars. If factory made full alloy bodies as Optional equipment which may be recognized with a minimum production of 100 units per year to equip 100 cars, other wise just Lightweight coachwork elements, such as aluminum doors,
Or
As for full alloy bodies could they have been cars built in group 5 or 6 ?
1968: Could have one or more full alloy 1968 GTV in Group 5: Special touring cars (Min quantity 1)
or
Group 6: Prototype Sports cars (Min quantity 1)
1969: Could have one or more full alloy 1969 GTV in Group 6: Prototype Sports cars (Min quantity 1)
1970/71:
Group 6 : prototype-sports cars. (Min quantity 1)

There may be other possibilities. You have to look at what others were doing like Angelini who may have ran cars in these Groups: 4,5 and 6. Some one with Angelini's book could provide us with some details, if he ran a car that looked like a 1750 GTV in full alloy.
There was an alloy looking 1750 GTV here in Australia by using a GTA as a start point. Technically the Australian modified car could have been a group 5 or 6 GTV 1750 car.

So it was possible!
As always my opinions.
Cheers Steve
 

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Hello fine gentlemen,
A while ago, I remembered reading a post where it was mentioned that some NON GTA cars were produced at the end of the 105 series with Aluminum parts.
I do believe that a 1750 GTV was mentioned in the post and was located in Canada.
Can any of you remember this. Better, if you have first hand experience with “regular” 105/115 series built by the factory with aluminum doors, trunk and bonnet, could you please share your stories?
Thank you very much for any info you may have!
Cheers
Looks like it was possible !
Cheers Steve
 

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But definitly we bought 4 GTA doors 1981 and they had the inner parts for the new window slider!!!! we realised about 30 years later , when we took one of them to restore an GTA!!!
This falls into the FIA 100 car alloy door option in 1970!
or
a part of the Alfa Romeo 1750GT Am FIA Groupo 2 Turismo in 1969 with 1000es, which means that 1000 examples were made, regardless of how many were converted to 'full specs' as the majority of collection of parts were listed as options, so allowed under the FIA rules. So 1st October 1969 for FIA homologation no. 1576, then the revision homologation no. 1576/3/2V Grouppo 2 Turismo 1000 Date: 1st Jan 1970, see the document below.
24: Materiale: Alluminio 105.31.55.042.00 and 043.00 are the GTA doors it's authorised to use.
26: Cofano baule in alluminio 105.32.56.031 the GTA bootlid it's authorised to use.

unfortunately no aluminum bonnet spelt out,
showing
cofano motors in plastica 105.51.56.030.10
 

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Front panel for a flat nose was not made by Alfa Romeo out of aluminum ... so you could not have done this with genuine panels (unless you somehow riveted the steel nose to the alloy guards. Unlike the almost hidden rivets of a GTA these would be very visible in front of the front wheels).
It's just a myth, likely created over a beer or 2 ?
Pete
Good answer, as for an aluminum nose? you are right it would have trouble supporting it's self. May be that's why parts 105.02.54.238.00 and 105.02.54.237.00 were installed to help support the fenders near the fire wall, so they don't flex near the nose. But for the question about factory involvement on aluminum boot lid, doors and bonnet. Probably only yes for the aluminum doors and boot lid. Of course a full alloy group 6 car could have been built, as to if it was? who knows may be a myth, but then again may be not! One was put together here in Australia back in the 70's.
 

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Yes the bonnet, doors and boot lid could easily have been ordered and replaced the steel parts that Alfa made the 1750 with. Just like lots of GTAm had those panels (bonnet, doors and boot lid) in fiberglass.

But I do not believe Alfa ever sold a 1750 to this specification.
Pete
 
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Yes the bonnet, doors and boot lid could easily have been ordered and replaced the steel parts that Alfa made the 1750 with. Just like lots of GTAm had those panels (bonnet, doors and boot lid) in fiberglass.
But I do not believe Alfa ever sold a 1750 to this specification.
Pete
Hi Pete,
You are missing the facts I am trying to point out.
1. You could order from Alfa any one of '1000' 1750 GTAm 'cars' at the dealership with alloy doors and boot lid already installed in 1970 from the factory, as per Homologation FIA 1576/3/2V, see the first photo.
2. In 1970 according to FIA rules you could also order a car with aluminum doors (possibly boot lid etc) If the factory made at least 100 cars available with this option in Group 2.(obviously Alfa factory made 1000 available!)
3. In Australia a private racer did make an all alloy 1750 GTV, which would have been under FIA a group 6 car.[FIA was not the governing body in 1970 in Australia]

Cheers Steve
 

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Homologation doc's don't necessarily mean any were made ... or do they???

The GTAm's that raced had steel body shells (guards), surely the race teams would have bought alloy ones if legal for their race series, but they didn't ... did they?

But yes it appears based on the doc's that it was possible ... but GTAm race history pretty much proved nobody did (I think)
Pete
ps: wish the original owner of my 1750 ordered the alloy doors and boot lid. Would have saved me many hours of de-rusting!
 

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If you study the homologation documents, they the 'Alfa factory' had to have made the cars first.
So as to answer your first question. Yes the cars were typically made prior to homologation. FIA 1576/3/2V was an 'invariata', a variation to FIA 1576 making the aluminum doors and boot lid available from 1st Jan 1970 for a 1750 GTAm.

Your second question about alloy bodies being legal for GTAm in their race series.
Certainly race series existed, but so did the allowance for group 5 and 6 cars, see Angelini's race programs.
In 1969 the 1750 GTAm was homoligated in Groupo 2: Turismo (1000 samples) and the body was steel as you point out, the teams could not change it in 1969 to aluminum if they ran in Group 2. They had to wait until 1st Jan 1970 so they could change the doors and boot lid to aluminum.
If they ran in Group 5 or 6 they probably could change the body to aluminum as a private entrant, as to if there was any factory direct conversion to full alloy through Autodelta or Angelini is a good question.
It is well documented that in Australia a private racer did make an all alloy 1750 GTAm, which would have been under FIA a group 6 car.
In 1970 it could be considered FIA allowed a minimum 100 cars to have lightweight coach elements like alloy doors, ...( boot lid and bonnet as they are elements too). What about a lightweight coach element being the body!
I guess you need to get your head around how it all worked, looking at the dates on the documents.
FIA sets rules first, then Alfa factory makes cars to take advantage of new rules. Alfa factory then homologates cars, supplements existing homologations with extra additions (i.e. aluminum doors and boot lid etc ) under the umbrella of the FIA rules.
If there are other members that know more happy to be correct.
Cheers Steve
 

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I stand corrected.

I am very surprised though that in my 30+ years of being an Alfista I have never heard of an alloy bodied 1750 (not meaning just opening panels here but the guards + roof).

That is why I questioned the order, i.e. homoglation document first of after the cars were made.

A genuine alloy 1750 would be the pinnacle of the 105 series and as so rare (100 made apparently) that we, and all the books, would know about them.

How come we dont?, other than the Aussie one which was NOT produced by Alfa Romeo but creates in Australia so does not count as genuine.
Pete
 
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Steve,

Are we sure Alfa Romeo did not just make 1000 aluminium right doors and 1000 aluminium left doors and 1000 aluminium boot lids?

As you say "you could order a car with this spec."

And as they had already made many of these aluminium components for GTA's it would have been easy to homologate this, as thousands already made.

And yes I agree, of course, that many GTAm owners, once they were allowed to, would have bought these allow doors and boot lids.

But I still do not believe Alfa Romeo or Autodelta rolled out a brand new 1750 chassis with full alloy body work. Yes the Aussie made one but I could make one too.
Pete
 
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