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Discussion Starter #21
Benvenuto "Manzoni"!

It would be nice to see additional photos. Do you have a gearbox as well?

I do not have any specific information collected about chassis/engine 700499. You probably already know that your photo shows enough detail to suggest that the engine is in "GT" configuration rather than "Pescara"? Please share the Tipo designation and specific serial number of the carburetor.

My study notes show that a chassis/engine number in this numerical zone is perhaps as likely to have been completed, first sold and used 1935 even though late 1934 is possible. The coachbuilder had a role in the timing.

Again, it would be nice to see additional photos.

Distinti saluti,

John
 

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Hi, I have these two gearboxes;

20150709_185956.jpg

20150709_185810.jpg

the nr. 741156 should be that of 6C2300, the other should be 6C1750 (12545229).

Send also the photo 6C2300 engine, the cylinder head, manifold and carbs should I look for them, but I seem to remember that they are two single-body carbs ...

20150709_192644.jpg

20150709_192832.jpg

20150709_192841.jpg

Thanks

Michele
 

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Discussion Starter #23
cambio 6C

Grazie Michele!

The gearbox numbered 741156 is perhaps original to your engine (700499) but it seems a bit more likely to be from an earlier engine? There is a version of this gearbox that has sportier ratios but it is not uncommon to find this 22x39 ratio in use behind either GT or Pescara tuned engines, particularly in the early examples.

The gearbox numbered 12545229 is likely to be from a 6th-Series Gran Sport or a 1900GT. As with many (most?) of the later gearboxes, it does not have the truly "sport" ratio of the earlier Gran Sport gearboxes.

It is not unusual in this time period to find some very tiny markings on internal parts of the mechanical assemblies such as engines, gearboxes, steering boxes, suspension units, etc. These markings were made by certain mechanics during their hand-fitting work and sometimes contain individual tracking numbers and dates. Those parts seen thus far seem to have been marked with a tiny electrical arcing pencil and it can require a magnifying glass to read them. It is also easy to obliterate them if mechanical cleaning is done.

Di nuovo, la ringrazio,

John
 

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6C2300

Dear john,
thank you for the "passionate suggestions" you gave me.
It is very pleasant appreciate this your infinite love for the Alfa Romeo ...as well as exceptional knowledge. It is also for this reason that I went to search for the head of cylinders and manifold with carbs:

20150711_161049.jpg

20150711_161035.jpg

20150711_161139.jpg


as you will see from the images, in fact are two beautiful black Weber 36 DO2 ...

Good weekend
Michele
 

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This is becoming a truly fascinating thread! Thank you both, John and Michele, for sharing information that gives insights into pre-war Alfa Romeo history.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
New 6C2300 listing

Here is an updated listing of 6C2300 data collection highlights that also attempts to infer that there is much more to do and that much more can already be shared with those who actually get around to sharing some of what they can learn from their own cars. This is intended to be an information exchange. There have been 1535 views of the listing which used to appear in the first posting on this thread.
 

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John, FYI: The 1934 Alfa Romeo Paris 6C 2300 with chassis #710600 and engine #710600 is currently listed for sale on Hemmings (see here)by MaranelloPuroSangue in Italy (they also seem to have 6C 2500 Pininfarina #915766, engine #928072 in the showroom, as per separate thread).
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Letournier et Marchand = Letournier & Marchand

Grazie Ruedi!

I have a feeling that, although described nominally as a "1934" car, this characterization probably refers to the build of the chassis (710600). I suspect that, by the time the car was bodied and delivered to its first owner, we might generally prefer to label the car as a "1935" if we wish to acknowledge the time it took to do this sort of work? I am not suggesting that "1934" is impossible (as a completed car) but it almost surely would have been quite late in 1934 ... and only if it was rushed to completion. I base this observation on the number of cars that were first registered 1935 in Italy ... with nearby (earlier and later) chassis numbers.

It is a lovely thing and is indeed quite rare ... if not unique. I'd like to learn more about it.

John
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Weber 36DO2 #2442

I have been extremely slow in studying the implications of this carburetor when related to the 6C2300 engine 700499. Apologies!

The 36 DO2 was seemingly not yet in use during 1934 or 1935. The earliest possible use I have found is PERHAPS 1939(?) and then it would have been on a select few 6C2500 engines beginning at that time. The serial number "2442" is certainly post-war rather than pre-war. So, any implications of the possible "Pescara" twin-carb application is not impossible for the engine historically ... if the manifold is correct for an early "Pescara", but the carburetors have most likely been changed ... if the manifold and carbs were fitted to the engine at one time.

Please note that we do not have any build documents that tell us which carburetors were fitted to which engines by Alfa Romeo. We do have some post-war Maserati documents that tell us that the DO2 carburetors were used on certain Maserati engines. Observation of certain cars and engines during the past thirty-plus years has allowed me to compile a listing of more than 50 examples of 36DO2 carburetors in use on Alfa Romeo and Maserati engines. #2442 is the highest number seen and #165 is the lowest reported thus far. A lower number has been reported for a 36DO2M, which is probably numbered in the same series. The Weber 36DO1 was catalogued for use on some 6C2300 engines. It would not surprise me if we learn one day that there was a 36DO carburetor in use on something or other prior to the 36DO1.
 

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Just some info for your research. Chassis 813003 engine 823003 is indeed alive and well and presently in Francesco Bonfanti's Garage in Bassano del Grappa in Veneto Italy.
The car was found abandoned in a field in the area and was restored by Francesco's father, Gigi, in 1971. It was the third car built of the B series and has some non common details such as the single gauge on the dashboard and the border (edge) on the fenders. I attach a few pictures of the car today and of the restoration in 1971
 

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Discussion Starter #32
While doing some research at Alfa Romeo a number of years ago, Simon Moore came across a short list (single page, misfiled) of early 6C2300B cars and the note next to chassis 813003 indicated it had been shown at Geneva. We can probably presume it was 1936 for that event. I've not yet searched for the date of the Salon Geneve/Genf of 1936.
 

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While doing some research at Alfa Romeo a number of years ago, Simon Moore came across a short list (single page, misfiled) of early 6C2300B cars and the note next to chassis 813003 indicated it had been shown at Geneva. We can probably presume it was 1936 for that event. I've not yet searched for the date of the Salon Geneve/Genf of 1936.
Unfortunately I do not know the car's history prior to its discovery in 1971. Centro Documentazione has confirmed the car to be a genuine matching numbers car but not much else is available at their archives.
 

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Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
A bit more than two years ago, I began studying some records that became available once they were declassified by governmental authorities. The documents I continue to study came from scans supplied by fold3.com and these are specific military records that were generated by an Italian agency that collected information from Italian claimants who declared that certain properties had been taken by German armed forces during World War 2. Hundreds and hundreds of Fiat and Lancia cars appear on the listings and also some Alfa Romeo cars. A few Isotta Fraschini and some other cars as well. Most of the cars are described in chassis number order and each car is described in a single line of information. There are exceptions to this format, but surprisingly few.

One car listed is the 6C2300, chassis/engine 700610, a car that is known today. I've studied it a bit. It has parts that make it seem "Pescara" but … was it originally "Pescara" in its tuning? The Solex carburetors and the fuel pump on the car today are of German origin but the intake manifold is Alfa Romeo. I've made no attempt to date it precisely as that detail did not seem important until now.

The 1947 document tells us that the last wartime Italian owner lost the car sometime prior to 1946. The Brescia license plate listed was issued 1943.

We believe the car, as it exists today, has been re-bodied postwar in Germany, most likely by Rometsch. So, "taken by Germans" and then a postwar reappearance in Germany seems to fulfill a sense of possibility.

Studies of the Brescia plate record led to an ownership history that included a Mille Miglia participant of 1936, 1937 and 1938. The PRA papers describe a 4-seater berlina and gave us some earlier license plates to study. Some are not "easy" researches. The first plate issued to the car was only alluded to as "Milano" but without sharing the number.

A search of the earliest named owner, Vittorio Randaccio, (racing in 6C2300 cars) leads to a sense of possibility that he might have used the car 1936, 1937 and perhaps 1938 on the Mille Miglia. But, we had no clue as to the form of the original body, aside from its description as "closed 4 seater". And, the Randaccio family might well have owned more than one Alfa Romeo? Nothing was certain.

Then, a photo was found of #117 on the Mille Miglia of 1937 in the archive of Foto Locchi. Two images show a berlinetta by Touring. A Milano plate was visible in one image. It took a good long time to get around to researching that number plate. The result arrived this morning, thanks to Corrado Bellabarba's research. The car is a match for 1937 (race #117) and probably also for Randaccio's 1936 Mille Miglia (race #39 = "berlina Pescara") participation? No photo has been found thus far.

Three other 1936 MM 6C2300 cars have been identified in photos as 700622 (race #35), #700401 (race #37) and 700635 (race #38). Since Vittorio Randaccio owned 700610 beginning 1935, and used it on the MM of 1937, it seems likely that he used it 1936 as well.

700610 was sold prior to the 1938 Mille Miglia race, so we can guess that the Randaccio entry that year (race #134) was probably in a 6C2300B that is yet to be identified.

Who knows what some of the other cars "taken by German Armed Forces" might have done in earlier lives?
 
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