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Alfa Romeo 6C2300 (6C2300A & 6C2300B)

22K views 38 replies 9 participants last post by  tubut 
#1 · (Edited)
Update 24 December 2020: The latest-greatest version of the 6C2300 overview listing is now attached to this first message and I will probably place future updates here as well.

The overview listing of information compiled thus far about Alfa Romeo 6C2300 production had been moved to the second page, post #26. That listing was updated to July 9, 2015 and then edited quite heavily from there. There were well over 230 cars described by chassis number and some additional characteristic. There were 882 "views" of the listing in post #26 as of 24 December 2020, near 4 PM PST. I will leave it to you to update the count of 24 December 2020 as I thnk there are too many uncertainties to attempt to be too precise about a current count.

If nothing else, these listings should show that 6C2300 production is not described accurately by the simplified tables that have been presented by Alfa Romeo through Luigi Fusi and others. This is not surprising if you consider the nature of "production" in the 1930's compared to today's expectations. In fact, you'll find some indication that there is evidence that Alfa Romeo simplified the production statistics even while cars were being produced during 1934 and 1935.

You'll find some information about "Sport", "Pescara", "Mille Miglia" (also referred to as "1000 Miglia" and "1ooo Miglia" and even "MM"). There's "corto" and "lungo" and some additional observations as well. There's not enough information about Ferrari himself even though some of this appears in the master listing. There's a bit of a reference here to the two 6C2300B that became "256" in days of old, at least throught the use of what was called a "256T" engine ... and you can learn a bit more about this detail on another thread here on the AlfaBB. What I haven't suggested yet is that there could well be other similar cases yet to be revealed by additional study. On the other hand, maybe we've already "accidentally" discovered them all?

Although I have made efforts to include information that seems mostly reliable, individual errors are certainly possible and even expected. There are a number of details that are marked with question marks or in red. There may be other details that "should be" marked similarly? I hope to hear from anybody who is able to correct any factual error or clarify an uncertainty. I have included a few comments in red that are not considered "fact" but which attempt to be informative to the point of stimulating thought or even comment. Some of these are the result of comments that have been made by others and some are personal thoughts as to what seems possible ... if not likely. It would be silly to think there are not a few errors or misleading pieces of information since a lot of context is not known. A fair bit of information has been edited from this listing in an effort to present a relatively simple overview.

In another listing that posted near the middle (post#6) of this page, you will find a brief synopsis of Alfa Romeo 6C2300 racing at two important events in 1934 as well as some events later in the 1930's. The most successful cars were prepared and supported by Scuderia Ferrari early on but some others also did well. I have compiled similar information for other prewar races as well but much more remains to be done.

There is a lot of information that is not presented here. Most of the missing information is simply not yet known! Very few of these cars are reasonably well described. Most are not. There is certainly missing information that is known by somebody out there and I will be happy to exchange more information about many of these cars with individuals who show enough interest to share information that they have collected on any of these cars.

This chart, although simplified, is not exactly "easy" to read. You will want to take some time if you wish to learn what can be learned while taking none of it too literally as being individually significant. I am attempting to present a broad overview. I am NOT attempting to show indiividual histories or technical descriptions.

For those who wish to know simply a bit more about early Alfa Romeo production, there are no expectations on my end. I do hope you enjoy the overview and hope that one day you might come across something that should be included in this listing ... or in a similar listing about 6C1500, 6C1750, 6C1900 or any other Alfa Romeo car of the 1920's, 1930's and 1940's. Even later! Or, maybe there is a general question that you feel should be addressed more specifically in this compilation? Please let me know.

More detailed and personalized listings can be prepared for anyone who shares information that adds data or context to the master listing from which this listing is derived. Posting #12 has some forms that can be used while collecting data from cars and/or parts themselves.

John

The listing that was posted here from August 2010 until July 18, 2015 had received 1535 views.
 

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#28 ·
Letournier et Marchand = Letournier & Marchand

Grazie Ruedi!

I have a feeling that, although described nominally as a "1934" car, this characterization probably refers to the build of the chassis (710600). I suspect that, by the time the car was bodied and delivered to its first owner, we might generally prefer to label the car as a "1935" if we wish to acknowledge the time it took to do this sort of work? I am not suggesting that "1934" is impossible (as a completed car) but it almost surely would have been quite late in 1934 ... and only if it was rushed to completion. I base this observation on the number of cars that were first registered 1935 in Italy ... with nearby (earlier and later) chassis numbers.

It is a lovely thing and is indeed quite rare ... if not unique. I'd like to learn more about it.

John
 
#29 ·
Weber 36DO2 #2442

I have been extremely slow in studying the implications of this carburetor when related to the 6C2300 engine 700499. Apologies!

The 36 DO2 was seemingly not yet in use during 1934 or 1935. The earliest possible use I have found is PERHAPS 1939(?) and then it would have been on a select few 6C2500 engines beginning at that time. The serial number "2442" is certainly post-war rather than pre-war. So, any implications of the possible "Pescara" twin-carb application is not impossible for the engine historically ... if the manifold is correct for an early "Pescara", but the carburetors have most likely been changed ... if the manifold and carbs were fitted to the engine at one time.

Please note that we do not have any build documents that tell us which carburetors were fitted to which engines by Alfa Romeo. We do have some post-war Maserati documents that tell us that the DO2 carburetors were used on certain Maserati engines. Observation of certain cars and engines during the past thirty-plus years has allowed me to compile a listing of more than 50 examples of 36DO2 carburetors in use on Alfa Romeo and Maserati engines. #2442 is the highest number seen and #165 is the lowest reported thus far. A lower number has been reported for a 36DO2M, which is probably numbered in the same series. The Weber 36DO1 was catalogued for use on some 6C2300 engines. It would not surprise me if we learn one day that there was a 36DO carburetor in use on something or other prior to the 36DO1.
 
#30 ·
Just some info for your research. Chassis 813003 engine 823003 is indeed alive and well and presently in Francesco Bonfanti's Garage in Bassano del Grappa in Veneto Italy.
The car was found abandoned in a field in the area and was restored by Francesco's father, Gigi, in 1971. It was the third car built of the B series and has some non common details such as the single gauge on the dashboard and the border (edge) on the fenders. I attach a few pictures of the car today and of the restoration in 1971
 

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#32 ·
While doing some research at Alfa Romeo a number of years ago, Simon Moore came across a short list (single page, misfiled) of early 6C2300B cars and the note next to chassis 813003 indicated it had been shown at Geneva. We can probably presume it was 1936 for that event. I've not yet searched for the date of the Salon Geneve/Genf of 1936.
 
#33 ·
Unfortunately I do not know the car's history prior to its discovery in 1971. Centro Documentazione has confirmed the car to be a genuine matching numbers car but not much else is available at their archives.
 
#34 · (Edited)
A bit more than two years ago, I began studying some records that became available once they were declassified by governmental authorities. The documents I continue to study came from scans supplied by fold3.com and these are specific military records that were generated by an Italian agency that collected information from Italian claimants who declared that certain properties had been taken by German armed forces during World War 2. Hundreds and hundreds of Fiat and Lancia cars appear on the listings and also some Alfa Romeo cars. A few Isotta Fraschini and some other cars as well. Most of the cars are described in chassis number order and each car is described in a single line of information. There are exceptions to this format, but surprisingly few.

One car listed is the 6C2300, chassis/engine 700610, a car that is known today. I've studied it a bit. It has parts that make it seem "Pescara" but … was it originally "Pescara" in its tuning? The Solex carburetors and the fuel pump on the car today are of German origin but the intake manifold is Alfa Romeo. I've made no attempt to date it precisely as that detail did not seem important until now.

The 1947 document tells us that the last wartime Italian owner lost the car sometime prior to 1946. The Brescia license plate listed was issued 1943.

We believe the car, as it exists today, has been re-bodied postwar in Germany, most likely by Rometsch. So, "taken by Germans" and then a postwar reappearance in Germany seems to fulfill a sense of possibility.

Studies of the Brescia plate record led to an ownership history that included a Mille Miglia participant of 1936, 1937 and 1938. The PRA papers describe a 4-seater berlina and gave us some earlier license plates to study. Some are not "easy" researches. The first plate issued to the car was only alluded to as "Milano" but without sharing the number.

A search of the earliest named owner, Vittorio Randaccio, (racing in 6C2300 cars) leads to a sense of possibility that he might have used the car 1936, 1937 and perhaps 1938 on the Mille Miglia. But, we had no clue as to the form of the original body, aside from its description as "closed 4 seater". And, the Randaccio family might well have owned more than one Alfa Romeo? Nothing was certain.

Then, a photo was found of #117 on the Mille Miglia of 1937 in the archive of Foto Locchi. Two images show a berlinetta by Touring. A Milano plate was visible in one image. It took a good long time to get around to researching that number plate. The result arrived this morning, thanks to Corrado Bellabarba's research. The car is a match for 1937 (race #117) and probably also for Randaccio's 1936 Mille Miglia (race #39 = "berlina Pescara") participation? No photo has been found thus far.

Three other 1936 MM 6C2300 cars have been identified in photos as 700622 (race #35), #700401 (race #37) and 700635 (race #38). Since Vittorio Randaccio owned 700610 beginning 1935, and used it on the MM of 1937, it seems likely that he used it 1936 as well.

700610 was sold prior to the 1938 Mille Miglia race, so we can guess that the Randaccio entry that year (race #134) was probably in a 6C2300B that is yet to be identified.

Who knows what some of the other cars "taken by German Armed Forces" might have done in earlier lives?
 
#35 · (Edited)
I think it possible that some folks might enjoy reviewing some Foto Locchi archival material that can be simply enjoyed or used as a study aid?

Taking the 6C2300 Pescara, chassis 700610 as an example, I will describe how to find two images showing the car on the Mille Miglia of 1937. Unfortunately, no similar images are yet known for 1936. We believe that the car appeared that year with race #39 as Vittorio Randaccio purchased the car very shortly prior to the Mille Miglia. Foto Locchi has images of race #35 (chassis 700622), race #37 (chassis 700401 in its pre-Zagato form) and race #38 (chassis 700635). There are quite a number of images of other cars as well, including #54, a 6C1750 Gran Sport (chassis 8513048) but the race number (#54) cannot be seen in the photo shared.

For 1937, the two images shown by Foto Locchi can be located by searching (in this example, I used Google) simply by typing "Foto Locchi" arriving at some suggestions: Text Computer icon Font Line Screenshot


Then click on the highlighted suggestion, leading to this: Text Font Line Screenshot Computer icon


And then: Text Font Line Screenshot Number
where you choose "automobilismo".

You can begin to look at interesting images straight away but, for this study, enter "1937" in the search box to arrive at a page of twenty images from that year. Photograph Vehicle Car Vintage car Classic

Race #112 is chassis 700401 with a spider Zagato body.
Cortese and Guatta were 6th overall.

If you go to the seventh page, this appears at the top: Vehicle Car Off-road vehicle


I have added some additional information to the screen shot.

Buon divertimento!
 
#37 ·
Lots of distractions and quite a lot of relatively recent input has made the preparation of a new listing a long, slow slog, but I am close. The listing now describes at least 303 chassis individually by chassis number and most with the original engine number pairing. Roughly 134 are 6C2300(A) with seemingly 28 examples "existing" today. Some 169 or so are 6C2300B with at least 52 existing today. There are many additional references to engines on their own. I will leave the previous version of the listing in place as I am not repeating all the earliest appearance dates in the version that will appear next.

Please remember that I do not share these listings to show how much is known. Almost always, I am well aware of how much is not yet known and these lists are an appeal for some folks out there to share any bit of news they might have about any car or engine. Even other numbered components can tell us something. For those who share detail, I generally share detail in return. There are some notes in the upcoming listings as to what might be done with additional funds to drive additional research. Many cars can be described much better than they are currently. There is even a small chance of turning up a car or two that are not yet known to us today?

Don't begin to hold your breathe just now, but it should not be long before there is an expanded listing. There is one source I am still trying to invite to share some added descriptive details to vaguely described cars that I have tripped across in heavily edited form. This listing will also be heavily edited and I may choose to leave those mere "chassis numbers" (without context) out for now?
 
#39 ·
Some more numbers worth considering for the list -- both supposedly of 6C 2300 cars or parts that became 8C 2600 Monza tribute cars:
  • Chassis and engine No. 700571, shown here (offered but not sold at Gooding 2010 Pebble Beach auction, see here).
  • Chassis No. 813900 with Engine (or crankshaft) No. 823903, discussed in this thread and crankshaft this thread (see also detail pictures in Pinterest gallery here).
 
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