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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
The overview listing of information compiled thus far about Alfa Romeo 6C2300 production has been moved to the second page, post #26. The listing is updated to July 9, 2015 and then edited quite heavily from there. There are well over 230 cars described by chassis number and some additional characteristic. If nothing else, this listing should show that 6C2300 production is not described accurately by the simplified tables that have been presented by Alfa Romeo through Luigi Fusi and others. This is not surprising if you consider the nature of "production" in the 1930's compared to today's expectations. In fact, you'll find some indication that there is evidence that Alfa Romeo simplified the production statistics even while cars were being produced in 1934 and 1935.

You'll find some information about "Sport", "Pescara", "Mille Miglia" (also referred to as "1000 Miglia" and "1ooo Miglia" and even "MM"). There's "corto" and "lungo" and some additional observations as well. There's not enough information about Ferrari himself even though some of this appears in the master listing. There's a bit of a reference here to the two 6C2300B that became "256" in days of old, at least throught the use of what was called a "256T" engine ... and you can learn a bit more about this detail on another thread here on the AlfaBB. What I haven't suggested yet is that there could well be other similar cases yet to be revealed by additional study. On the other hand, maybe we've already "accidentally" discovered them all?

Although I have made efforts to include information that seems mostly reliable, individual errors are certainly possible and even expected. There are a number of details that are marked with question marks or in red. There may be other details that "should be" marked similarly? I hope to hear from anybody who is able to correct any factual error or clarify an uncertainty. I have included a few comments in red that are not considered "fact" but which attempt to be informative to the point of stimulating thought or even comment. Some of these are the result of comments that have been made by others and some are personal thoughts as to what seems possible ... if not likely. It would be silly to think there are not a few errors or misleading pieces of information since a lot of context is not known. A fair bit of information has been edited from this listing in an effort to present a relatively simple overview.

In another listing that posted near the middle (post#6) of this page, you will find a brief synopsis of Alfa Romeo 6C2300 racing at two important events in 1934 as well as some events later in the 1930's. The most successful cars were prepared and supported by Scuderia Ferrari early on but some others also did well. I have compiled similar information for other prewar races as well but much more remains to be done.

There is a lot of information that is not presented here. Most of the missing information is simply not yet known! Very few of these cars are reasonably well described. Most are not. There is certainly missing information that is known by somebody out there and I will be happy to exchange more information about many of these cars with individuals who show enough interest to share information that they have collected on any of these cars.

This chart, although simplified, is not exactly "easy" to read. You will want to take some time if you wish to learn what can be learned while taking none of it too literally as being individually significant. I am attempting to present a broad overview. I am NOT attempting to show indiividual histories or technical descriptions.

For those who wish to know simply a bit more about early Alfa Romeo production, there are no expectations on my end. I do hope you enjoy the overview and hope that one day you might come across something that should be included in this listing ... or in a similar listing about 6C1500, 6C1750, 6C1900 or any other Alfa Romeo car of the 1920's, 1930's and 1940's. Even later! Or, maybe there is a general question that you feel should be addressed more specifically in this compilation? Please let me know.

More detailed and personalized listings can be prepared for anyone who shares information that adds data or context to the master listing from which this listing is derived. Posting #12 has some forms that can be used while collecting data from cars and/or parts themselves.

John

The listing that was posted here from August 2010 until July 18, 2015 had received 1535 views.
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Rumored "6C2300B" car with S10 (V12) engine turns out to be 6C2500 N. 915066 and references can be found to it elsewhere on the AlfaBB and on the web.
 

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I am prepared to support your research of 6C2XXX but I need your direction if I am to assist your sizeable efforts thus far. This is a very specific Alfa topic, but also fascinating.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Alfa Romeo 6C2300 Racing in the 1930's

Please note that the first posting in this thread has been modified and there is a newly updated chassis number overview listing posted there.

Here is a racing compilation (now separated from the chassis listing) that is far from complete. It is a mere "beginning" (once again) but you'll note that some cars are already identified as to chassis number. Some educated guesses are in red that will want some work done to either confirm or deny those identities. The chassis numbers "in black" should be correct barring some sort of subterfuge of the time.

There is a bit more information already known about a non-racing event in 1938 but the data has been shared in confidence so far. Hopefully it can be shared in the future. Regardless, there is much more to be done!

John
 

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Hello John


Thanks for the updated listing, I can see my own additons but
813914 motore P.823916 2300B Pescara berlinetta Touring #2062 new to Sweden

Is not in my records, Can you tell me more on this No. And what´s the source of the info.
RGDS
Björn Nilsson

RGDS
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Ar 6c2300 813914

Hello Björn,

Thank you very much for your very interesting input on the 6C2300 and 6C2500 cars that had early Swedish histories. Your response was the most expansive of any of the few responses that came through members here on the AlfaBB. I will send an updated listing to you with some additional detail.

The source of the "Swedish origins" information on 813914 came from a former Swedish owner who contacted me in July. You'll have his name and I can probably put you in touch with each other. I probably should have offered this even before now!

Correction: The former Swedish owner has checked his records and the car he owned was actually N. 813913 ... NOT 813914.

A presto,

John
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
A new addition and an editing omission noted

The listing shared at the top of this thread failed to note that 813860 was noted in early Swedish documents as being "Pescara". Thanks to Björn Nilsson for the information supplied earlier this year that made a point of this. Although noted in my master listing, I omitted the detail from the compilation. From additional detail supplied by Björn, it seems also quite likely that 813859 was also in a "Pescara" state of tuning/preparation when it was sold new into Sweden. As some will know already, the "Pescara" state of tune involved more than the engine receiving two carburetors. There should be some good clues elsewhere on that car that will help to confirm this once some details about the gearbox and front suspension are reported.

Corrado Bellabarba, in a posting on another thread (http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/limited-production-1910-1949/161501-unidentified-6c-2500-a.html#post915877) has made the first new addendum since I posted the revised 6C2300 listing at the top of this thread early this morning. Chassis 815015 is (was?) a 6C2300B bodied by Stabilimenti Farina for a dealer in Milano & Torino to sell to Renzo Ricci by March of 1939.
 

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Thanks John
When following up a recent picture taken in Milano this Summer of a 6C2500 SS Corsa (or what is suppossed to be one) with a swedish reg no I came across a 71 page listing by you on 6c2500´s and yes I can add bits to that one cars not listed and fates on listed cars. Stay tuned. You have also got in your email som pics of 813859 front suspension.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks Björn!

Thanks Björn!

I will be looking for your updates and photos of details about the various 6C2300 and 6C2500 cars. I wish that more owners were willing to share details about their cars in order to benefit the historical study rather than waiting until they feel they need to do it as part of a car's promotion for sale ... or study before a purchase.

Regarding the 6C2500 listing that is posted by the Registro Internazionale Alfa Romeo 6C2500, this was prepared by myself in a bit of a hurry by their request. I believed it was to be for the use of their membership and there would be some controls over its distribution. I was not aware that it would be available to everyone via an open link on the internet. Even so, it was highly edited at that time so I have to acknowledge that the master listing was much larger than 71 pages even then. The primary chassis data listing has grown substantially since then with new data collected from many sources and the master now contains 112 pages of data even though some portions of the listing have now been split off into separate listings.

Once again, there are more-detailed listings that I will share with owners who share added detail about their cars.

John
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Data collection

I'm pretty sure I've posted these worksheets on other threads here on the AlfaBB but ...

Once again, I will share worksheets of the primary build data that can be found on most similar cars from Alfa Romeo. One worksheet is more pertinent to the early solid-axle 6C2300 cars (being an extension of the earlier 6C series) and one worksheet is more appropriate to the 6C2300B, 6C2500 and 8C2900. Some cars do not have all the data that is asked for even by the appropriate form simply because not all cars were built at the same time to the same specifications by the same people or by the same coachbuilders. There were many variations!

Even so, I was surprised a few months ago when one 6C2500 form was sent with nothing at all entered on it and another was sent very recently with only a chassis number and a few claims made but no actual data entered from the car itself. You might find it surprising to learn that this is less frustrating to me than receiving forms with data that cannot be correct because of extra digits, missing digits or reversed digits in a portion of the number. These kinds of errors consume a lot of time in sorting out partly because it is not always obvious that something is truly wrong. After all, there are variations and a small variance from expectations about some detail might be one fo those variations for all we can know ... without working at figuring out why the detail is not as expected. So, we spend time trying to learn why something is the way it was reported ... when it was merely reported incorrectly. It would seem that I have not made it clear how important it is to gather the data and check it again to be sure that all is recorded correctly before sharing it.

I was a bit astonished to learn recently that a car (not Alfa Romeo) that had been found to have suffered a chassis number change in recent years through the apparent ignorance of the owner about the significance of the original chassis number, actually suffered an additional attempt to stamp the correct number but received a number that swapped a couple of digits on the first attempt to correct the numbering error. There is nothing wrong with the origins of the car based on a lot of research that has been done, but the number confusion may make this car something of an untouchable if the details become widely known. This is no fault of the car!

I consider all details (not just numbers) important from the standpoint of the study of history. It is not really necessary to know anything about a car's history to enjoy it as a car and I understand this very well. I even agree that we should not really care if the wheels on a car are "not original". If they act as wheels should, and if they look pretty good, that should be fine. However, it is now becoming more and more important to have certain "numbers-matching" (or not) characteristics be described during the sale of certain cars in particular. When the wheels and the axles and the chassis and the engine and portions of the body are not the original parts, we have to ask ourselves, "How much history are we looking at?" None of this makes a lovely car less of a car, no matter the findings about its "originality" but I feel pretty convinced that no premium should be paid for the history of a car that has no historical parts remaining.

Prewar Alfa Romeo cars have lots of number-based characteristics that act as clues to how the car was built and sometimes when and by whom. Sometimes there are dates scribed into parts by the machinists and mechanics who did the final fitting and assembly of certain components. The study of these numbers and dates is proving to be quite fascinating but ... All of these characteristics can be falsified. For high-dollar cars, it is becoming more and more important to get some forensic testing done when there is any question whatsoever about the historical provenance of the car itself or a large portion of its componentry. Metallurgical tests may reveal if a part was made with the materials specified by the original drawings. But then we have to be certain that there were no deviations (during production) from the specifications that were called for in the drawings. Just because a drawing called for a certain kind of steel or alloy does not mean that the same steel or alloy was available on the day that the parts were being made ... to a specific deadline. This means studying many similar cars in the same detailed way. The data that i am collecting now will be only the beginning of what we will want to know one day in the future ... if the collector car world is ever to attain something approaching the status of the serious fine art world. Whodunnit (and when) is becoming all-important and we will all benefit by removing some doubts (and confirming some of them as well!) about each car that is used as some sort of benchmark in the collector car world.

As I recall, I would like to do some more work on each of these data collection forms. If you have suggestions as to how to clarify them, or make them seem less daunting to those who would wish to fill them out and share the data, please let me know. Thanks!

John
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Correction!

Correction: The former Swedish owner has checked his records and the car he owned was actually N. 813913 ... NOT 813914 as he reported previously. This affects information shared in postings #1 and #8 above. This means that it is unlikely that 813914 was sold new in Sweden as reported in the initial listing ... that now requires editing.
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Additions since August 2010

It is now early December 2010 and information has been added about three cars that are new to the listing posted at the top of this thread. One each from the 813xxx, 814xxx and 815xxx number ranges. Before I edit a new listing sometime soon and repost, are there any other bits of "news" out there that would like to be recorded?

John
 

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Discussion Starter #15
New update in the works

Even though I cannot say that any new information has come to me since posting #14 as a result of posting the information that has been shared here, I have not been idle. More data has been gathered. I will post an update shortly. Anybody else have any news to share?
 

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6c2300 #814027

Does anyone has more information off the following car:

6C2300 B Pininfarina 1937
#814027
Retromobile 2013 and ex-Schlumpf.
Currently we're writing a book about the Schlumpf Affaire. In this book will the true story be told about the whole affaire and history.
If someone has some information about this particular car, please let me know.

Arnoud op de Weegh
www.extraordinarycarcollections.com
[email protected]

 

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Discussion Starter #17
814027 or 814047 ???

Hello Arnoud,

Are you certain of the chassis number identity "814027"?

If you are able to fill out a form describing the major elements of the car as it sits today, as well as identifying the Pinin Farina body number, there may be some additional details to study and describe as a result.
 

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Engine 700499...

700499.jpg

Hello, someone can tell me something about this engine?
Thank you



Here is an overview listing of the information compiled thus far about Alfa Romeo 6C2300 production. This is now updated to August, 2010. There are well over 200 cars described by chassis number and some additional characteristic. If nothing else, this listing should show that 6C2300 production is not described accurately by the simplified tables that have been presented by Alfa Romeo through Luigi Fusi and others. This is not surprising if you consider the nature of "production" in the 1930's compared to today's expectations. In fact, you'll find some indication that there is evidence that Alfa Romeo simplified the production statistics even while cars were being produced in 1934 and 1935.

You'll find some information about "Sport", "Pescara", "Mille Miglia" (also referred to as "1000 Miglia" and "1ooo Miglia" and even "MM"). There's "corto" and "lungo" and some additional observations as well. There's not enough information about Ferrari himself even though some of this appears in the master listing. There's a bit of a reference here to the two 6C2300B that became "256" in days of old, at least throught the use of what was called a "256T" engine ... and you can learn a bit more about this detail on another thread here on the AlfaBB. What I haven't suggested yet is that there could well be other similar cases yet to be revealed by additional study. On the other hand, maybe we've already "accidentally" discovered them all?

Although I have made efforts to include information that seems mostly reliable, individual errors are certainly possible and even expected. There are a number of details that are marked with question marks or in red. There may be other details that "should be" marked similarly? I hope to hear from anybody who is able to correct any factual error or clarify an uncertainty. I have included a few comments in red that are not considered "fact" but which attempt to be informative to the point of stimulating thought or even comment. Some of these are the result of comments that have been made by others and some are personal thoughts as to what seems possible ... if not likely. It would be silly to think there are not a few errors or misleading pieces of information since a lot of context is not known. A fair bit of information has been edited from this listing in an effort to present a relatively simple overview.

In another listing that I will post later you will find a brief synopsis of Alfa Romeo 6C2300 racing at two important events in 1934 as well as some events later in the 1930's. The most successful cars were prepared and supported by Scuderia Ferrari early on but some others also did well. I have compiled similar information for other prewar races as well but much more remains to be done.

There is a lot of information that is not presented here. Most of the missing information is simply not yet known! Very few of these cars are reasonably well described. Most are not. There is certainly missing information that is known by somebody out there and I will be happy to exchange more information about many of these cars with individuals who show enough interest to share information that they have collected on any of these cars.

This chart, although simplified, is not exactly "easy" to read. You will want to take some time if you wish to learn what can be learned while taking none of it too literally as being individually significant. I am attempting to present a broad overview. I am NOT attempting to show indiividual histories or technical descriptions.

For those who wish to know simply a bit more about early Alfa Romeo production, there are no expectations on my end. I do hope you enjoy the overview and hope that one day you might come across something that should be included in this listing ... or in a similar listing about 6C1500, 6C1750, 6C1900 or any other Alfa Romeo car of the 1920's, 1930's and 1940's. Even later! Or, maybe there is a general question that you feel should be addressed more specifically in this compilation? Please let me know.

This attachment (dated August) is replacing an earlier listing that is now superceded with information about a greater number of cars. More detailed and personalized listings can be prepared for anyone who shares information that adds data or context to the master listing from which this listing is derived.

John

NOTE!
A correction should be made to the attached document in that it now seems that there is no basis for us to think that 813914 was sold new in Sweden. A former owner misreported the chassis number when referring to 813913.
 

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View attachment 822761

Hello, someone can tell me something about this engine?
Thank you
According to Fusi's production numbers (see this thread), engine #700499 might come from a 1934 6C 2300 Gran Turismo or Pescara.

What can you tell us about the picture and/or where and when the engine was found?
 

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Hi, the engine is of my property by at least thirty years ... I re-found it, rearranging a garage. The engine is in Italy.
I was looking for more precise information, know "Fusi"...
Thank you
 
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