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Discussion Starter #1
I have started to restore an Alfa 90 v6 2.0 with the CEM injection system, but the engine itself has seized (was left in a poorly ventilated storage for 10 years aparently), there is rust on the cylinder walls and there is evidence of piston/valve contact, and also I am not sure if the engine management system is 100% complete and potentially operational, but it seems complete according to the few manual pages I have.

The availability of a 2.0 v6 (non-turbo) is almost non-existant, so my question is this: has anyone ever done or can comment on the possibility to adapt the CEM system to a 2.5 (which I can easily get from a 90QO donor) or a 3.0 12v engine (from a 164) and would it even be worth it (not looking for mega - power, anything close or above 150bhp would be enough)?

I would like to retain the unique look of the intake (individual throttle bodies) and preferrably also the rest of the system, but would also consider to use aftermarket EMS which can work with the intake.

As far as I know bigger injectors can be sourced from older bmw's, but I guess without a proper remap (which probably can't be done on CEM) it would be worthless?


This is the state I found it in:


This is how it should look like (not my car, nor my pic):


And these are the key components according to the manual:


The body shell to be used is now being stripped, and hopefully will be rust free someday:






btw, the intake runner diameter are ~35-36mm, so actually pretty close to the 12v 3.0 intakes? So could it work?
 

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JK QV,

Since the engine is out, put some spot welds in the engine bay at the seams.

About the ITBs from the CEM system, for a stock 3.0, possible ok, but how do you map the thing? If it's so old, it may not be worth it because I'm pretty sure the fuel and spark requirement between a 2.0 and 3.0 is going to be quite different.

Why not use the ITBs but go with MSII or VEMS?
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
JK QV,

Since the engine is out, put some spot welds in the engine bay at the seams.

About the ITBs from the CEM system, for a stock 3.0, possible ok, but how do you map the thing? If it's so old, it may not be worth it because I'm pretty sure the fuel and spark requirement between a 2.0 and 3.0 is going to be quite different.

Why not use the ITBs but go with MSII or VEMS?
Hi 75evo!
Thanks for the advice on the spot welds!

And I guess you are right about using a different management system.
Most of all I'd like to keep the look of the intake, so as long as the EMS used can work with these ITB's, I would consider using it.
I guess a modern ignition system and the possibility to adjust the fuel delivery just perfect with a laptop would be ideal.

From what I've gathered, what is usually needed for converting from carbs to injection is (list taken from Emeraldm3d.com website):
-An EMS
-A baffled fuel tank
-A high-pressure injection fuel pump
-A fuel pressure regulator
-Some injectors of the right capacity
-The appropriate ‘snap-on’ connectors for the injectors' wiring
-A configuration of throttle bodies (optionally with manifold)
-A throttle linkage
-A throttle position sensor (usually supplied with the EMS)
-A coolant temperature sensor (usually supplied with the EMS)
-An air temperature sensor (usually supplied with the EMS)
-A fuel rail (often included with the throttle bodies)
-Air horns and air filter
-Plenty of high-pressure rubber fuel hose and clips

As I am converting from CEM, some of these elements can be reused (itb's, manifold, fuel rail, maybe some sensors if they operate in the same range as ems expects). I'm surprised there's no mention of Lambda sensor, is it usually used only in set up stage?

The other thing than would be ignition - I guess the best way is individual coils? So I would need:
-cam phase sensor
-crank position sensors
-coil packs

And then there's also the idle airflow adjustment needed. As I understand CEM used a stepper motor on the throttle linkage, could this work also with a modern EMS?

Of course - this is currently only an exercise in theorycrafting, but if you have any thoughts or suggestions, I'd like to hear them :)
 

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That is a nice looking system.
get the 164 3.0 use its crank sender that came with the 164. You will need/want a WBO2 easy.
look at my VEMS install fore reference. you might need/want a 3.0 flywheel to keep it balanced.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Interesting thread slyalfa!
So one option for ignition system using VEMS:
- VW coilpacks (06B-905-115-N)
- (toyota camry?) shorter plugs
- Wiring for coilpacks (1J0-971-658-L x2)
- Crank sender from 164
- Cam phase sender ?
 

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I ran wires but never did a cam. so I run semi-seq. I fire 2 coils at once. I would say if your 164 is the old type with out oil squirters I would just use a dizzy and one good coil.
but if you have a newer block the the oil pump runs faster and you need to run edis as the dizzy would spin to fast and not be usable. The VAG coil do have some quality problems. I toasted 3 on one bank when some water went down the plug holes on that side when I was washing things with a hi-psi washer. looking at the failed coils the glue did not go all the way around so there was a hole the let the steam in to the coil. but this cold not bee seen with the rubber boot installed.
but I did learn something The alfa v6 runs very well on 3 cyl if all is one bank. but it runs like crap on 4 or 5 cyl. I have been thinking of cutting off 3 on the freeway to save gas.
I would need to move the WBO2 to the one bank I keep going.
 

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The alfa v6 runs very well on 3 cyl if all is one bank. but it runs like crap on 4 or 5 cyl. I have been thinking of cutting off 3 on the freeway to save gas.
I would need to move the WBO2 to the one bank I keep going.
Yeah, don't go doing things like that :eek:
Firstly, there is still the issues of pumping losses. But more importantly, there is the issue of uneven block heat.
Honda do it on some of their V6 engines, but I'm going to have a guess that they cycle left and right bank (front and rear for them), but transition from 1 bank, to both banks, to the other bank and have the ECU controlled throttle keep things nice and smooth.
 

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with the coolant flowing I do not think there will be much of a uneven temp
and yes there is pumping loss I not going to see the MPG as if I had a 1.5L but it should save some. and every bit helps.. but I like to try things like this out when I have time. I seem to have a lot of things to do/try and very little time. So I do not get to some things.
 

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I think to do that, you need full sequential ignition and injection, not wasted spark and batch fire injection.
 

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Full sequential will get better MPG then semi-sequential and semi gets better then batch which is the worst.
All types would work for bank cut. 2 throttles would also help. open the dead bank 100% to reduce pumping loss. and wasted spark has no effect at all. other then it can have a tiny tiny improvement in smog.

that is if every thing is up to the task. On a 15K-20K RPM engines the coil might not have the time to charge the field. so going wasted from a dizzy will give it more time. and full seq will give it even more time. But just going to a lower inductance coil will also shorten the charge time. so the truth of the matter is is more of a packaging thing. EDIS should be more reliable getting rid of the moving rotor and long wires. But having the coils on the hot head and the vibration they get it might not be the case. at least with COP's or CNP. having a coil pack mounted off the motor seems to be the best. You still have the wires. but the coils can live in a cooler and vibe-free environment.
COP's or CNP I think looks the best as there is just less clutter.
 
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