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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Almost posted this under the VW Jetta thread but thought it to be a bit off the base for that run so I decided to post this topic here for some general feedback and perspective.

The UK TV show "Top Gear/5th gear", whatever it's called, had one "shoot out" series where the Lancia Delta Integrale raced against the E30 M3. The Lancia barely edged the BMW out in a quicker lap time by 0.10 of sec. with the same driver in both cases. Is the Lancia the "better" handling or "faster" or just plain the "better" car? What does a lap time comparison like this really prove? The show went on to point out that most newer cars produced today, newer cars in the same or similar class even with less HP as compared to the M3 and Integrale, can beat them in lap time comparisons! What is interesting to ponder here is that the M3 and Integrale were two mega champions in their day. If I had a choice I would choose the Lancia over the BMW in a heart beat or even over a newer technically better car in the same class. This is just my personal taste.

Now with that said what about a BMW E30 M3 and the Lancia Delta Integrale vs the Alfa 75? These three I feel are very fair and period correct comparisons to the Alfa 75. Both the BMW and Lancia had much more sucessful race records than the 75 did and they both proved to be "better" cars for some drivers.

Since many of us on this board reside in the lower 48 USA we can simplify it down to the the E30 M3 vs the Milano Verde or Platinum or whatever 75 variant you like for a comparison. So which car "wins" or is "better"? The M3 obviously has many more performance options available here in the states and is excellent for tracking and I believe would, can and does routinely beat the Milano all other things being equal. The E30 M3 generally brings much higher re-sale prices vs the Milano. Do these factors mean it is the "better" car? Perhaps to some?

For me personally I still would rather own a Milano 3.0L vs the E30 M3 no matter what the outcome. I really really like the E30 M3 but I love the Milano for shall we say it's eclectic nature. Just my 2 cents worth. Have a great weekend!
 

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which year and model lancia did they use, there multiple models and engines of that car. theres a 4 cylinder non turbo, the 16v turbo charged, i think the last one was a 20 valve turbo, theres the evolution 1 and 2. as far as the M3 goes theres only one type, and if im not mistaking the e30 m3 only raced the 1.8 turbo alfa 75. i dont think it ever raced the 2.5l or 3.0l
 

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Discussion Starter #3
It was a 16valve turbo Integrale with 200HP vs the E30 M3 with 190HP.

Here is the link to the "shoot out" video:


The final comparison of lap times with modern cars may be surprising to some.
 

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i just remembered there was an evo 1 and 2 of the m3 very few were built, only awailvable in europe. im curious to no why no one brought up the mercedes 190 evo??? wants the dtm competition, bmw e30 m3 vs Mb 190 cosworth vs alfa 75 1.8t

as for that lancia that was very poor and shamful as much as i love both cars i do prefer the lancia, and i dont see how an alfa 75 1.8t would win agaist the lancia just because the 75 is alot heavier. they should have included the weight of both cars inthe video, more specs of both cars.
 

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A bit off subject but did anyone know that saab designed the original lancia delta! It was originally called the saab 600 and was designed by Giorgetto Giugario and was also much more resistant to rust than many of the other Italian cars on the market as a result of saabs superb build quality.


 

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i neverheard of that before, but nice to know, i thougth it was a fiat body tuned by lancia
Took me by surprise aswell. I was just looking for info on the delta and that came up in my google search. I think it's amazing. I think they actually sold them as saab 600's in sweden!
 

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ive seen this delta in france it has the square headlights, it looked very punney lol i hope i spelled that right. maybe this is the non turbo charged 4 cylinder. post some more this is intresting
 

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Discussion Starter #9
im curious to no why no one brought up the mercedes 190 evo??? wants the dtm competition, bmw e30 m3 vs Mb 190 cosworth vs alfa 75 1.8t
Very good point, we must not forget the 190 evo, this was (is) a great car.

With regards to the Delta Integrale 16v turbo I was told by reputable source (a Lancista who lived in Germany back in the late '80's early '90's) that back in it's day it was reported to be the world's fastest production car going from "point to point", of course this means not just going in a flat out drag race. No doubt the twin cam Lampredi designed FIAT engine can be tuned to scream!

BTW: What's the 0 to 60mph time for the Integrale in it's final form, something around 5.2 seconds? How about the for the Alfa 75 1.8t?

Before I forget is there an easy to access race record of the Alfa 75 published somewhere? It seems to me that I remember seeing some out right victories and podium finishes captured in some major events.

After it's all said and done I still like my Milano for what it is, a very cool and unique sedan that is fun even on longish "road" trips, a GT car of sorts and with four doors! :D
 

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Having owned and driven a 75 Turbo 1.8t and a Delta Integrale at the same time all I can say is that the 75 is dead in the water. There is just no way to compare them performance wise. And my -87 turbo was 1130Kg, pretty much exactly the same weight as the Delta.
E30 M3 vs. Integrale, the Delta is a rally car and the M3 is a race car. 'nuff said. Place the cars where the 4wd will actually do some good and the M3 will be badly whipped. :)

Saa bdesigned the Delta? Don't be silly, they rebadged them and sold them, that's all. Check the service points in the manual though, in Sweden they arn't the Fiat delalers but Saab dealers... I actually thought about asking a saab dealer for service once just for fun. :D
 

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Timo makes a good point. The Intergrale is well know as a very fast point to point machine, now add in some weather (rain) and its no contest. The last Integrale's could be tuned to 350hp with good reliability
 

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Saab designed the Delta? Don't be silly, they rebadged them and sold them, that's all. Check the service points in the manual though, in Sweden they arn't the Fiat delalers but Saab dealers... I actually thought about asking a saab dealer for service once just for fun. :D
Actually you are right. It is a rebadged delta but saabs input still made the delta a more reliable car. I just found this article on wikipedia. It wasn't soley designed by saab but they did help with the design, Lancia can't take all the credit for the orignal delta. Saab didn't simply rebadge them, they actually had some control.

The Saab 600 was a rebadged Lancia Delta, sold by Saab after a deal with Lancia (this deal was a part of the co-operation between Saab Automobile and Fiat-Lancia-Alfa Romeo, in the 1980s, which also resulted in the 'Type 4' project, which provided the common platforms for the Saab 9000, the Lancia Thema, the Fiat Croma and the Alfa Romeo 164). The 600 was developed because, at the time, Saab did not have the finances to support the production of entirely new models and looked to other companies in order to provide a new model line-up.

Versions available were: 1500 base, 1500 GL and 1500 GLS, as per Saab nomenclature of the era.

The Saab 600 was designed by Giorgetto Giugiaro and, in common with the company's other models, was a front-wheel drive and a hatchback, with a rallying pedigree. Saab helped with the design of the 600/Delta. As a result of this Scandinavian input, both the Saab-Lancia 600 and the Lancia Delta had better resistance to rust than most Italian cars and were better suited to a cold climate. The Lancia Delta earned the European Car of the Year Award in 1980.

The Saab 600 was sold in Sweden and Norway only, and can still be seen on the roads today.
 

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I've driven the e30 m3 a few times. Very capable car. Stock, it will beat the 75 in the handling department. Power wise, they're similar if you compare the 2.3 to 3.0 with a 4.10 diff.The 4cyl is a little rough though. If you put s cams and a better fuel injection system, euro bumpers, slightly modified suspension, and move the battery to the back, the 75 would almost be as good as a stock m3.
 

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that would make sense because BMW designed the M3 because they were tired of losing to the 75 on the track.
hence the 75 evo was desinged to beat the M3
 

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This Is The First Article Im Enjoying, Now To Those Who Are Unaware Of These Cars We Should Post Soem Pictures As Well :)
 

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I never knew the 75s were beating BMWs on the track. I thought it was the GTV6 that was doing relatively well on the track. If we're talking about racing heritage, it is the GTV6, 155 and 156, to my knowledge were more successful.

The 75 wasn't even close to being successful in the European Touring Car series. There might have been a few teams like the 75 3.0 V6 (Villamil, Perez-Sala) which won the Spanish and the EVO in the Italian series. The 75 Turbo however was not a track success as far as the ETCC was concerned, in fact it pulled out in 1988 due to rules which would make it uncompetitive.

As far as I can remember the Alfa sedans which were track successes were the 155 GTA, 2.0 in various series, V6Ti, 156 Superturissmo and WTCC. All FWD cars.
 

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As a result of this Scandinavian input, both the Saab-Lancia 600 and the Lancia Delta had better resistance to rust than most Italian cars and were better suited to a cold climate. The Lancia Delta earned the European Car of the Year Award in 1980.
Now that is just hilarious! :D

The "600" rusted so fast the Opels even looked like they were rust free in comparison. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
To answer my own question I found an on-line record of the 75's competition results see the attached link:

http://www.alfa75.info/id350.htm

Also attached are some pics of some versions of the 75:

All of text in quotes and the photos below were pulled off of www.Alfa75.info/ and accompanies the last three photos of that beautiful "hot rod" 75!


" Hello Rames, I promised to send you some fotos when I had finished the car and its completed and ready for test on trakcs this summer.
I have decreased the rpm down to 10000 rpm. Engine are tested in a dyno bench and pull 385 BHP, 280 Nm on 10000 rpm.
Running on racefuel 116 octane. Max rpm 14500 but I didnt dear to try due to high service cost if something wrong should
happen. The sound from this engine will give you goose skin the ekhaust system is 2 straight 2,5" pipes who ends 2 carbon
silencers from a Ducati 996. The car will come out in a lot of magazines tjis summer and on a DVD from Gatebil.no"

Caption for the last three pics at the bottom: "Alfacorse 155 2.5 V6 DTM Engine fitted in an Alfa75 [former 1.8 IE Turbo] Evo Competition Bella macchina from: Øyvind Nikolaisen. [N] AR75R202"

It seems this heavily modified 75 can keep up with modern traffic! :eek:
 

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I pretty much agree with 75 Evo's review of the E30 M3. Bone stock the E30 is a lot faster and better handling than the Verde. Remember even the USA E30 M3 weighs only about 2750 lbs with air. That's super light compared to a Verde or just about any modern car.

The engine is a little rough but it comes on very strong. The strong point of the E30 is the handling and feedback not the power by contemporary standards. It also hand wonderfully tactile controls. Of course for touring around town, the Verde would do better. I really don't think the V6 Alfa's are comparable to the M3. They were a better match capabilty wise to the 325is. Remember the M3 cost $34000 usd back in 1988. It was over $10,000 more than a Verde. That was mucho deniro back than.

The US M3's suck compared to the Euro Sport Evo's with the dog leg transmission, 2.5 engine, etc. Ever see all the crazy seals they put on the hood and elsewhere to reduce drag? I wouldn't mind seeing a diamond black metallic E30 M3 parked in my driveway.
 
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