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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi All,

I am making a new clutch set for my 102 2000 touring spider

based on the Fichtel und Sachs type used on 2300 RIO FNM engines

using a special custom made pressure group by F&S

Using a "modern" diafragma pressure group ( smoother and more pressure)

modification set for the clutch bearing with longer collar, and a clutchplate both in stronger then standard execution.

This set fits also 1900 and 2600 types

The only modification to do is making NEW holes and threads drilled in the flywheel


Is somebody interested in this set ?

I can make some extra sets

Rgds Franco
 

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Franco,

I can probably find the part number of the FS pressure plate that I used on my car. It was an off-the-shelf item and bolted straight up to the FNM holes drilled in the flywheel. The 102 pressure plate, as you know, uses bolts with precision shanks to locate it. The FNM uses the more modern dowel pin plus standard hi-tension bolts. The same disk works fine and is essentially the same diameter as the FNM unit.

Also, the diaphragm type uses a different throwout bearing with longer collar. You may recall I bought an FNM collar from you.
 

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F&S BMW 2002tii Clutch

Hey Franco,
As an alternative to the rio clutch components, have you checked into retrofitting a BMW 2002tii clutch? The pressure plate would require the exact same flywheel modification and the disk has the same diameter and has the same spline as the 102 (See photos comparing them). Additionally, these parts are readily available and reasonably priced. Also, the BMW release bearing runs on the same diameter shaft as the 102, so there is some potential to adapt that as well. I have only made a brief comparison of the parts but it looks promising.

I do have the original clutch for my long time non-running spider. I was planning on having it eventually rebuilt by a local shop that the Lamborghini guys use. Are there inherent problems with the original unit that warrants the engineering/replacement with a newer design?
Steve
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
Hi,

I have checked , but there is a difference between the splines from clutchplate/prise axle

BMW has metric size 23x29-10 and 1900/102/106 have inch size 28,6-10 on prise axle splines , so the bmw clutchplate does not fit : it has 0,5mm smaller splines .............

another difference is the total thickness of friction material on plate what is needed for pressure

I also think that the BMW 2002TI pressure goup has not enough pressure for the power and torque from the 2600 engines

I want to make a universal set which fits 1900/102/2600 maybe overpowered for the 1900 and 102 serie


FYI the "modern" newer diafragma clutch gives a better and smoother clutching

rgds Franco

rgds Franco
 

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I'm not sure what my diaphragm pressure plate was originally fitted to, but can find out. Again, I can dig around and find the Sachs part number, which pretty much makes it easier. I seem to recall that it might have been from a BMW, and that there was also an Opel that used the same plate. As I noted, the original 102/106 disk is fine, and are readily available.

I must note that the FNM flywheel has a small plateau in the middle where the 102 flywheel is perfectly flat. I assume this is because the inset of the diaphragm pressure plate is larger than that of the original spring type, or perhaps the diaphragm does not develop quite the same pressure. While it may work with the flat 102 flywheel, I would be concerned that the disk would start slipping early in its life. This might be cured by having a slightly thicker friction disk than the original. I cannot tell you the height of the plateau as it is now installed in the car, but perhaps I can get this information from someone in Brazil. One could machine the outer face of the flywheel to match that of the FNM, if it turns out to be critical.

I would double check the internal size of the BMW disk to be sure it is different than the original Alfa. If one just checks the manual, they sometimes quote the "nominal" size rather than the actual size. Thus, a 28.6mm may be referred to as a 29mm in another manual.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Hi All,

I found some NOS 2300 RIO/FNM pressure groups from F&S

no clutchplate and release bearings..............



FYI The bmw parts do not fit , they have other dimensions

rgds Franco
 

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Hi Franco
I just got a clutch plate from ebay,it has numbers on a sticker 1861 146 202,it has six springs and has F&S in large letters on disc material.I dont know if this is for 2600 but it was cheap so I bought it.Hope the numbers help.
Thanks Chris
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
HI ALL,

I found this on the WW web:


Références constructeurs (Numéro OEM) pour : Disque d'embrayage : SACHS : 1861 146 202

En cliquant sur ces références, vous aurez les pièces auto compatibles avec Disque d'embrayage SACHS 1861 146 202
•ALFA ROMEO :
102101203204
•ALFA ROMEO :
102051203200



Références équipementiers pour : Disque d'embrayage : SACHS : 1861 146 202

En cliquant sur ces références, vous aurez les pièces auto compatibles avec Disque d'embrayage SACHS 1861 146 202
•A.P. :
HB 1007
•SACHS :
18 1861 146 202
 

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I used a Sachs pressure plate SC138 on my FNM engine. I bought it from S&G Imported Car Parts in Farmington Hills, Michigan, at 248 477 0410. This is not a Sachs part number, unless it is a contraction of some sort. I'm not able to look at my actual pressure plate at the moment, but it has the long Sachs part number on it if someone needs it hunted down at some point. I'm pretty sure this is a BMW unit, or possibly Euro-Opel. In any case, it is an exact duplicate of the original FNM unit, and operates flawlessly.

As noted in a previous post, to convert to a diaphragm type clutch you'll need a different throw-out bearing with a longer collar. You could possibly have the collar machined and use an available throwout bearing suitable for a diaphragm type. The disk for the FNM and Alfa are essentially identical, so no problems there, and the Alfa units for 2000/2600 are relatively easy to locate.

I have some doubt that the diaphragm pressure plate will work well with the 102 flywheel, however, as the FNM flywheel has a raised center area that would create a greater clamping force. It may work initially but end up having premature slippage due to the increased clearance on the 102 flywheel.

Also, the 102 flywheel would have to be removed and precisely drilled for the mounting screws and centering dowels used by the modern pressure plate. This would not be a significant problem for a good machinist with the right equipment. I had my FNM flywheel drilled and tapped to accept the original 102 Spring-type pressure plate in case I had to revert to it. The 102 pressure plate could always be shimmed away from the pressure plate to accommodate the raised area in the middle.

I see the diaphragm conversion as being desirable, but not the easiest challenge.
 

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I recently finished an engine and transmission rebuild on my 2000 roadster. While doing the rebuild I had the pressure plate rebuilt, and replaced the clutch with a new 1964 Chevy Nova clutch plate that fit perfectly, was very reasonably priced and works great.
Ken
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Hi all,

this 1964 Chevy Nova clutch plate is 10 inches...........

in 2000/2600 clutch are 9 inches ( or 228mm ) discs..........

rgds Franco
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hi Don,

do you have a partnumber or dimensions of the axial pressure bearing fitted in the 2300 rio throw-out bearing collar ?

in my 2300 collar it is pressed in and sounds and looks good and don't want to dismantle it but I want a spare

rgds Franco
 

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Franco,

I got the 2300 bearing and collar from you, and it seems to be working fine. Unfortunately, it is in the car so I cannot access it to measure it. I will be in Brazil in about 10 days visiting with owners of 2300's, so will ask for more info.
 

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Many years ago I took the clutch from my 1952 1900 Berlina to a local clutch builder who said looking at it knowingly "that's a clutch from a Chrysler Slant-6 Valiant". The parts he provided matched perfectly!

The Chrysler Slant-6 engine (put in a Wikipedia search) was made in huge numbers and spares kits would be available today.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Hi Don and All,

I converted my original sachs clutch to the "modern" diafragma RIO/FNM clutch

I have a question about the collar and release bearing movement distance made by the hydraulic cilinder (mounted to bellhouse )

it looks that the original old sachs type clutch needs more movement and more power/force then the diafragma type rio clutch

can I make the movement and power/force less by using a smaller diameter cilinder(mounted under the floor ) which is fixed to the brakepedal ?

rgds Franco
 

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Franco,

I am operating an FNM 2300 engine. The disk is standard 102. The pressure plate is a Sachs diaphragm type that matches the original dimensions perfectly, and was original specified for a BMW.

I am using the collar and throwout bearing that I bought from you, and it mounts to the standard 102 mechanism.

My master cylinder and slave cylinder are new, standard 102 diameters.

The clutch works perfectly. Very smooth, with good release behavior, and the foot pressure is very comfortable. It has been a long time since I operated a standard 102 clutch, but my sense is that the diaphragm type requires less pressure.

As you probably know, the FNM flywheel has a small raised "ledge" that protrudes a bit with respect to the surface that the pressure plate bolts to. I have a hunch that if you bolt the diaphragm pressure plate to a standard 102 flywheel it may tend to slip due to not getting enough pressure on the disk. It is possible that one will have to machine down the surface that the pressure plate bolts to before converting to the diaphragm type.

Of course, it may also work fine with a new disk, but start slipping earlier than it normally would as it wears.
 

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BMW clutch on 1900`s

Hi Franco, you know our 1900 TI Super with 1308 engine (about 143 H.p.). We use a BMW clutch from the early 3 Series. Of course there was some work to make it fit. Because I didn`t do it myself, I`ll ask the workshop, what they did exactly.
Yours, Jan
 
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