air con
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Freeze 12
For the record, Freeze 12 is 80% R134a. Freeze 12 does work well, but there is a down side. A lot of shops won't touch your car after you've used it because they don't want to contaminate their equipment with an impure mixture. Just something to consider. -Steve
For the record, Freeze 12 is 80% R134a. Freeze 12 does work well, but there is a down side. A lot of shops won't touch your car after you've used it because they don't want to contaminate their equipment with an impure mixture. Just something to consider. -Steve
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Steve is right. I was threatened with a $2,000 bill to repair their machine if I installed some of that over the counter stuff or knew the PO had done it.
I also got lucky as the PO replaced the R12 system with an R134 system but never told me!
I only had 4oz in they system. Re charge took 32oz and now it blows cold.
If I could only figure out how to have it blow strong now
I would go look at your fittings and see if the PO had it changed over.
If R12 both the high and low fittings will be the same size. If R134, the fittings will be different sizes.
Good luck.
Vin
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224 Posts
Freeze 12
As some of you know, I teach auto air conditioning at a community college here in Arizona. Whenever we bring in a car to work on, we do two checks. First we check for "leak sealer" - we certainly don't want that in our recover/recharge machines. A company named Neutronics makes a simple test kit for that, and takes about two minutes. If the car passes that, we then run a contaminant check, also using a Neutronics tester. It also takes two minutes, and gives a digital readout of the refrigerant types and in what percentage. If the car fails either test, we send it out the door. -Steve
As some of you know, I teach auto air conditioning at a community college here in Arizona. Whenever we bring in a car to work on, we do two checks. First we check for "leak sealer" - we certainly don't want that in our recover/recharge machines. A company named Neutronics makes a simple test kit for that, and takes about two minutes. If the car passes that, we then run a contaminant check, also using a Neutronics tester. It also takes two minutes, and gives a digital readout of the refrigerant types and in what percentage. If the car fails either test, we send it out the door. -Steve
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so what is the alternitive for older r12 systems?
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Retrofit
1. Recover all the R12 in the system.
2. Install R134a quick disconnect fittings.
3. Install PAG oil.
4. Install a high pressure cut-off switch on the "HI" side.
5. Place label in engine compartment documenting conversion.
6. Evacuate and recharge with R134a refrigerant, using 80% of original R12 amount.
Removal of the old mineral oil is not necessary.
Changing hoses to the new "barrier" hose is not necessary.
The EPA agrees with these findings.
Interdynamics, Inc., is a large manufacturer of A/C parts, and has a great FAQ section: IDQ - Auto A/C Products & Sealing Solutions
We have found that there are a few examples of cars that don't convert well, namely Hondas, which have such marginal A/C systems in the first place.
I recommend putting in refrigerant with dye in it. It is an incredibly effective way of finding leaks. But don't get the stuff with "leak sealer", for reasons I mentioned in an earlier post.
-Steve
Converting to R134a is a relatively simple job. In the mid-90s, the recommendation was to flush all the lines, pull the compressor and change the oil, change the condenser, change the receiver drier, etc. A pretty major and expensive proposition. Since then, however, it was found that a "low cost method" works just fine. Here's what you need to do for the conversion:
1. Recover all the R12 in the system.
2. Install R134a quick disconnect fittings.
3. Install PAG oil.
4. Install a high pressure cut-off switch on the "HI" side.
5. Place label in engine compartment documenting conversion.
6. Evacuate and recharge with R134a refrigerant, using 80% of original R12 amount.
Removal of the old mineral oil is not necessary.
Changing hoses to the new "barrier" hose is not necessary.
The EPA agrees with these findings.
Interdynamics, Inc., is a large manufacturer of A/C parts, and has a great FAQ section: IDQ - Auto A/C Products & Sealing Solutions
We have found that there are a few examples of cars that don't convert well, namely Hondas, which have such marginal A/C systems in the first place.
I recommend putting in refrigerant with dye in it. It is an incredibly effective way of finding leaks. But don't get the stuff with "leak sealer", for reasons I mentioned in an earlier post.
-Steve
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451 Posts
OK thanks for thi info, sounds a little out of my league, but at least I have a idea, if I go to a place and they want to take me to the cleaners....
Bob
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Some above advice is to be taken with great caution. There is no approved DROP IN refrigerant approved by the EPA, including Freeze 12:
"Misleading Use of "Drop-in" to Describe Refrigerants
Many companies use the term "drop-in" to mean that a substitute refrigerant will perform identically to CFC-12, that no modifications need to be made to the system, and that the alternative can be used alone or mixed with CFC-12. However, EPA believes the term confuses and obscures several important regulatory and technical points. First, charging one refrigerant into a system before extracting the old refrigerant is a violation of the SNAP use conditions and is, therefore, illegal. Second, certain components may be required by law, such as hoses and compressor shutoff switches. If these components are not present, they must be installed. See the section below on use conditions for more information on these points. Third, it is impossible to test a refrigerant in the thousands of air conditioning systems in existence to demonstrate identical performance. In addition, system performance is strongly affected by outside temperature, humidity, driving conditions, etc., and it is impossible to ensure equal performance under all of these conditions. Finally, it is very difficult to demonstrate that system components will last as long as they would have if CFC-12 were used. For all of these reasons, EPA does not use the term "drop-in" to describe any alternative refrigerant."
Thats the first thing. Second, if converting to R134a or even Freeze 12, not necessary, although, advisable to install new more efficient condenser IF you can cram it into our spider noses- good luck.
Third, the ONLY drop in that does not react with halogenated freon residues in oil which has not been changed out is Propane/isobutane mix (Duracool, HC Refrigerants, ES Refrigerants- all the same thing. propane will NOT react with those residues to produce corrosive acids. otherwise, forget the magic bullet of "drop in" gas without flushing all oil/freon.
"Misleading Use of "Drop-in" to Describe Refrigerants
Many companies use the term "drop-in" to mean that a substitute refrigerant will perform identically to CFC-12, that no modifications need to be made to the system, and that the alternative can be used alone or mixed with CFC-12. However, EPA believes the term confuses and obscures several important regulatory and technical points. First, charging one refrigerant into a system before extracting the old refrigerant is a violation of the SNAP use conditions and is, therefore, illegal. Second, certain components may be required by law, such as hoses and compressor shutoff switches. If these components are not present, they must be installed. See the section below on use conditions for more information on these points. Third, it is impossible to test a refrigerant in the thousands of air conditioning systems in existence to demonstrate identical performance. In addition, system performance is strongly affected by outside temperature, humidity, driving conditions, etc., and it is impossible to ensure equal performance under all of these conditions. Finally, it is very difficult to demonstrate that system components will last as long as they would have if CFC-12 were used. For all of these reasons, EPA does not use the term "drop-in" to describe any alternative refrigerant."
Thats the first thing. Second, if converting to R134a or even Freeze 12, not necessary, although, advisable to install new more efficient condenser IF you can cram it into our spider noses- good luck.
Third, the ONLY drop in that does not react with halogenated freon residues in oil which has not been changed out is Propane/isobutane mix (Duracool, HC Refrigerants, ES Refrigerants- all the same thing. propane will NOT react with those residues to produce corrosive acids. otherwise, forget the magic bullet of "drop in" gas without flushing all oil/freon.
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Do not confuse EPA approved with drop in. 2 different concepts. Freeze 12 is approved but NOT considered drop in, period.
You want to just drop in? Propane is it, end of story.
You want to just drop in? Propane is it, end of story.
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It is R142B.......just a variation of CFC's, thats all (easy to google the compound/msds/whatever). Still, I do not see any literature that suggests that the balance of Freeze 12, the 20%, makes the R134a 'compatable" with old mineral oil contaminated with r12. Thats a recipe for halogenated acid residues.
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451 Posts
this is all very complicated. can or can not this system be upgraded...is it better to just for the air? I am not working, so I have to put my dollars where they will go furthest...if the air is a dead issue, I will just ignore it.
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Bob, I can't speak to the technical aspects of it, but I can relate my experience with two Spiders in the DC area (which is probably a few degrees warmer on average than NY). My first Spider had working a/c and, since the top was down most of the time, the only time I used the a/c was when I got caught in a summer storm- mostly to help defog the windows. One of the POs removed the compressor from my current Spider. I have a 3 page list of to-do items and the a/c is at the very bottom with a question mark. In my opinion, it's not a high priority item; from reading your other posts, it sounds like your efforts and money are better spent sorting other issues.
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to do the Spider a/c right, nearly 20 years later, one really needs to replace the compressor and receiver/dryer and flush the evaporator and condensor to remove old oil/cotaminants then carefully inspect the rubber hoses and replace where necessary then replace every o ring with new. Determine which refrigerant you want to use [r12 really works best as this system was sized for it] Add appropriate oil. Once this is completed pull the system into a vacuum for an hour and let sit for a while and make sure it holds the vacuum. Recharge by weight recommended on a/c label for r12 or about 20% less for r134a.
With that said some have had success evacuating the system pulling a vacuum then charging with a propane/butane refrigerant. Others have sucess with r134a retrofits without flushing the components.
i suppose since you have a non functioning a/c doing the second option first may be satisfactory trial for a limited budget as the first will cost a lot of money and your labor.
Just DO NOT use any of the system sealers sold at auto parts stores as they will surely harden in your receiver, evaporator, hoses, etc. and a full system replacement might be necessary.
I rebuilt mine from the ground up last summer and use it a lot here in NC.
The system with R12 cools really nicely but the blower is still too weak for my tastes.
best of luck
With that said some have had success evacuating the system pulling a vacuum then charging with a propane/butane refrigerant. Others have sucess with r134a retrofits without flushing the components.
i suppose since you have a non functioning a/c doing the second option first may be satisfactory trial for a limited budget as the first will cost a lot of money and your labor.
Just DO NOT use any of the system sealers sold at auto parts stores as they will surely harden in your receiver, evaporator, hoses, etc. and a full system replacement might be necessary.
I rebuilt mine from the ground up last summer and use it a lot here in NC.
The system with R12 cools really nicely but the blower is still too weak for my tastes.
best of luck
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