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Discussion Starter #1
Let me get to the point:

I picked up a 1964 Spider 1600 uncompleted project recently. The motor was rebuilt but lacked the intake manifold and carburetor. While I have nothing against the Solex set up I have no experience with it and really don't have the time right now to hunt and learn. What I do have is a fresh head from a '66 Spider complete with intake and Webers. I would like to use this set up with the original block and as I understand it, this shouldn't be an issue. What is an issue is clearance for the carbs.

From my little bit of research I understand that I would need Veloce style motor mounts that lift the motor and headers that account for the change in position in order to make this fit correctly. These look to be readily available from the usual suspects.

My question is: Is there anything else I need and/or need to know to make this work? I have seen obscenely priced "Veloce" oil pans and am praying that that's not necessary. Is there an issue with engine angle and the rear trans mount?

I'm not trying to make a faux Veloce - just the straightest path to getting this car back on the road.

A testament to the performance of the CarJacket car cover - fresh from a 10 year slumber...
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Back at the shop - still hasn't been washed...
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What I believe is the original motor...
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With the original head...
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Getting the shiny pieces installed feels like progress...
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Rich you are starting off with an advantage in the 1600 as it's taller, the Veloce mounts in the 1300 had to cant the motor over to clear the air box against the inner wing - the 1600 has more clearance from the start

Jack the motor up, remove the engine mount on the carb side, fit your Duetto set-up complete with airbox, now see what space is available for mountings. A brilliant tip from Alfazagao / Stuart in the UK is to pull the engine monting studs out and replace them with cap screws - make the job just so easy. Additionally Stuart mills 1.3mm off each face of the engine mounts and makes 1.5mm spacers to go in their places, so effectively he can move an engine a little left or right to get the alignment 100%. By fiddling with tapered shims you can swivel a motor up or down on one side or the other. Clearance under the hood is tight, but not as tight as the flat 1300 hood.

I see you have the steel 1600 mounts, if you can't get sufficient adjustment, you can always fit 1300 alloy mounts and add a shim or two under the intake side

You might need to grind a little from under the Duetto air plenum & you will need to fab up a carb support stay - child's play for a man of your talents. As a bonus the carb stay pushes the carbs up just a bit and you gain additional clearance. Carb droop can suck up 1/2" of clearance pre the fitment of the stay.

If you tilt the motor just a bit on the intake side, no issue with the rear mout & no issue with the oil pan either. If you plan on autocrossing hard, you can look at a Veloce pan or add a custom gate set-up into the standard 1600 alloy pan.

I run a 1600 twin carb in a 1300 Normale with a 1600 normal oil pan. Tight fit, but no issues, OK I did use 1300 Veloce mounts & air plenum

Ciao
Greig
 

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From my little bit of research I understand that I would need Veloce style motor mounts that lift the motor and headers that account for the change in position in order to make this fit correctly.
At least on the 1600 101 Giulia that I assembled, the dual Webers fit fine with the stock motor mounts. You need to tilt the engine to fit a veloce air plenum, but if you use aftermarket air filters, there is no need to mess with veloce mounts, shims, etc.

In fact, if you do tilt the engine toward the left, then the stock cast-iron headers may interfere with the steering column, necessitating veloce-style tube headers.
 

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Hi there, you can also use open, very short velocity stacks. Did you have a question about the oil pan? I'm assuming there is one currently on it, which should remain to be ok. The engine installed in the below picture is all wrong, it's a 105 1600.

Cheers,
 

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Or . . . you could source a Weber DCD carb and retain the original manifold. A single carb 1600 Giulia isn't a bad combination at all and, while the Solex isn't a horrible carb at all, back-in-the-day a lot of Normale owners replaced the Solex with a DCD which is in every respect a better carb for the car, delivering a bit more power, better gas mileage, etc. Even better, the DCD is a simple bolt-on mod.
 

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I did this conversion on a 62 Giulia. I can tell you from personal experience that the motor mounts Centerline sells simply do not work, I drove myself nuts trying. I ended up sourcing an original Veloce mount for the left side and everything went in smoothly. I am running the correct block combined with the head, carbs and factory plenum of from a 66 Duetto. I believe that the Duetto plenum is wider than the 101 Veloce plenum, so its a very tight fit.
 

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This thread interests me greatly, I have a 1600 sprint which is inherently a normale. I have a 2 sets of webers and 105 manifolds and air plenums. I have a few questions, will the 105 manifold work with the 101 head, I have a choice of dcoe 4 carbs or dcoe 24's. the 24's are off a gulia super and have smaller chokes. does anyone have an opinion on which carbies suit best, also I can get hold of some sprint GT cams too, will the cams matter.
Additionally I have a further complication as the car has been converted to RHD by Rudspeed in the UK. Does anyone know if a rudspeed car has been converted to dual webers, I have seen a sprint speciale with the veloce set up( which is standard) converted to RHD. any feedback welcomed.

sorry Rich for the Hijack.

cheers ian
 

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Discussion Starter #8
No worries, Ian...

Thanks all for the comments. I have a friend who has a set of Veloce motor mounts so I should be all set. He didn't think the ones offered by Classic Alfa would work so it's a good thing they were back ordered.

Earlier I dry fit the head/carb assembly and felt the carbs could fit but they were just touching the inner fender. I couldn't see that even the aftermarket filters could fit. I do think that shimming the PS could have provided enough clearance for the carbs but I'm still not convinced about the filters. I was thinking that if I used solid mounts and milled a bit off the flanges that that might be enough. Better yet, fab new solid mounts with shorter overall length while maintaining the flange thickness.

I went ahead and ordered a set of Veloce headers and so with the mounts I'm hoping I'll not have any trouble (experience suggests otherwise...). Regardless I'll post my progress when we get back to it.
 

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I dry fit the head/carb assembly and felt the carbs could fit but they were just touching the inner fender. I couldn't see that even the aftermarket filters could fit.
Well, all I can say is that stock motor mounts & aftermarket filters worked for me. And, looking at vintagemilano's post #4, it looks like he had similar clearances. But if you go to the expense of using veloce-type headers and mounts, obviously you can increase the clearance.

gprocket said:
I do think that shimming the PS could have provided enough clearance for the carbs
What the heck is the "PS"? Power Steering?

ITALCAROZ said:
I have a further complication as the car has been converted to RHD by Rudspeed in the UK. Does anyone know if a rudspeed car has been converted to dual webers, I have seen a sprint speciale with the veloce set up( which is standard) converted to RHD.
Wow, I can't imagine how the starter and throttle linkage would fit if there was a steering column on the right hand side. Then too, the engine could be tilted far to the left if there wasn't a steering column on the left hand side.

The geometry of a Sprint Speciale should be the same as that on your Sprint, so if it's possible on a SS ..... My recommendation would be to look at that SS again, take some measurements, ask what motor mounts were used, etc. Was the SS you saw also a Rudspeed conversion?
 

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Sorry, PS = Passenger Side...
Ah, the passenger side. Yea, shimming only that side would raise the height of the engine, as well as tilt it. You need to drop the "DS" at the same time to maintain the location of the crankshaft axis.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Ok, this is what I'm up to. I secured a set of genuine Veloce motor mounts from Roman Auto Sport and popped for the Classic Alfa Veloce Headers. So far so good. I dry fit the motor and was surprised at how much room I now have. Enough to use my curved intake stacks.

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Rich,

This thread is of special interest to me as I'm restoring a Giulia Spider to Abnormale specs:wink2:

What was the problem with CA Veloce motor mounts? I bought a pair for my 1600 after being assured that they were exactly what I needed. I haven't installed them, as of yet, so I want to be certain that I have what I need.

Ray
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Rich,

This thread is of special interest to me as I'm restoring a Giulia Spider to Abnormale specs<img src="http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/images/AlfaBB_2015/smilies/tango_face_wink.png" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />

What was the problem with CA Veloce motor mounts? I bought a pair for my 1600 after being assured that they were exactly what I needed. I haven't installed them, as of yet, so I want to be certain that I have what I need.

Ray
Sorry if I was unclear. As far as I no there is nothing wrong with the Classic Alfa Veloce motor mounts. The only problem was that they were back ordered. Of course two days after I got the mounts from Roman the CA mounts showed up... They look very well made and include the rubber bushing for the carb support.

I'll be returning the CA mounts unless someone needs a set...
 

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Well, all I can say is that stock motor mounts & aftermarket filters worked for me. And, looking at vintagemilano's post #4, it looks like he had similar clearances. But if you go to the expense of using veloce-type headers and mounts, obviously you can increase the clearance.



What the heck is the "PS"? Power Steering?



Wow, I can't imagine how the starter and throttle linkage would fit if there was a steering column on the right hand side. Then too, the engine could be tilted far to the left if there wasn't a steering column on the left hand side.

The geometry of a Sprint Speciale should be the same as that on your Sprint, so if it's possible on a SS ..... My recommendation would be to look at that SS again, take some measurements, ask what motor mounts were used, etc. Was the SS you saw also a Rudspeed conversion?
hi Alfajay,
one thing they do is put a couple of uni joints in the shaft to get it to run down lower under the carbs and I guess they till the steering coloumn down at a steeper angle, the rudspeed converions seemed to have some blessing with the factory as cars shipped directly to them from alfa. ill have to mock it up and see if it fits. cheers Ian
 

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Hi,
I am also very interested in this thread as trying to convert a 1300 to Abnormale, …. can someone help me with a link to the following so I can see what is involved > ""A brilliant tip from Alfazagao / Stuart in the UK is to pull the engine monting studs out and replace them with cap screws - make the job just so easy"".
Many thanks,
Leigh
 

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Folks, Alfazagato/Stuart shared this little tip with me & I've been doing it on my cars, you simply remove the 8mm studs in the block where the mounting bolts up against - the triangle shaped mount on either side of the block - see picture.

When you fit the engine mounts, they just slide into place, no wrestling with trying to fit the engine mounts over the studs by heaving the block to one side and then the other side won't fit so you hoof & heave more and end up forcing things into place and scratching paint. Cap screws are just so easy to fit once the mounting is in place & it's 100% reversible

Ciao
Greig
 

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Many thanks for this explanation, I am trying to follow but an struggling …. could you tell what a cap screw is and how it would then be fitted ….thanks
 

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A cap screw is the USA term for an Allen head screw

Try source a Cap/Allen screw with a small shoulder, (like the front one), where it goes through the mounting - it's best practice not to have threads inside anything that isn't threaded itself as the threads can cut into soft metals

As for fitting - pull out the 3 studs pictures in post #17, the cap screws will then get threaded into the block once the engine mounts are fitted. Tighten with the correct size Allen key. Always use a small flat washer to distribute the load and it's your call between a lock washer or Locktite or both

Ciao
Greig
 

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