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Accelerator Pump Circuit

5967 Views 9 Replies 4 Participants Last post by  genericwood
This is a cross-post from the Alfa race group. Does anyone have experience with a DCEO that drips fuel through the pump nozzle at idle? The float level is correct, the one-way valve that feeds the circuit is working properly, and the check valve (steel ball/brass weight) is clean and looks like it should be sealing correctly. Any ideas from the weber gurus?
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Check Valve

Have you inspected the steel balls under magnification? I use a jeweler's loupe and occasionally find signs of pitting thus causing a poor seal.

Regards,
Don
More often crud in there, under the ball. Often a blast of compressed air in there with the ball and weight removed, as well as the pump jet. Leave the pump jet brass cap off and watch yourself for flying fuel and crud if this it done on the car. The weight and ball CAN be removed with the Weber on the car, using surgical tweezers on the weight, and a magnet to lift the ball. DO NOT drop the ball into the passage between the ball check valve assembly and the starter jets! This can be a VERY hard retrieval job, Weber on or off the car!
Thanks guys. I did inspect the ball and weight carefully on the bench, as well as blow out the circuit with compressed air. But it is possible I missed something. Since both barrels of that one carb are leaking, it would suggest that both check valves are malfunctioning. Is there anything else that could be happening that would affect both circuits?
How can you tell it's leaking at idle ? Can you look down the barrel ? I've been fighting a rich cylinder & finally blocked off the starter passages with a set screw . Haven't driven enough to tell if that is where the extra fuel is coming from . Never thought about the acc pump circuit leaking !
How can you tell it's leaking at idle ? Can you look down the barrel ? I've been fighting a rich cylinder & finally blocked off the starter passages with a set screw . Haven't driven enough to tell if that is where the extra fuel is coming from . Never thought about the acc pump circuit leaking !
Mirror and a flashlight.
I failed to note it was you, Ken, asking these questions. Your problem lies in the catacombs, under the Weber. Often filled with debris. I call it the catacombs, because of the Italian connection, access, and what comes out when you clean the circuit.
Below is a diagram. if BOTH jets are leaking, try removing the exhaust jet, I call the bleed back jet, in the bottom of the float bowl, and cleaning it, or better, replacing it with another. This may solve your problem. Likely vacuum past the pump jets is sucking fuel from the bottom of the bowl, past the bleed back jet. ;)

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I failed to note it was you, Ken, asking these questions. Your problem lies in the catacombs, under the Weber. Often filled with debris. I call it the catacombs, because of the Italian connection, access, and what comes out when you clean the circuit.
Below is a diagram. if BOTH jets are leaking, try removing the exhaust jet, I call the bleed back jet, in the bottom of the float bowl, and cleaning it, or better, replacing it with another. This may solve your problem. Likely vacuum past the pump jets is sucking fuel from the bottom of the bowl, past the bleed back jet. ;)
Not Ken. It's Erik. Sorry for all the follow-up questions. I guess I don't understand what you refer to as the bleed back or exhaust jet? Isn't the valve in the bottom of the float bowl a one-way valve that simply prevents fuel from being pushed back into the float bowl when the the pump piston is depressed? The way I picture the system, at steady state, that one-way valve allows fuel to flow into the pump circuit until the column of fuel equals the float level. When the accelerator pump piston is depressed, fuel can't flow back through the valve and is forced up through the "check valve" and on to the nozzle. Do I have a misunderstanding somewhere?
The system is supposed to work as follows. Butterflies closed, the pump is filled with fuel which has entered from the bleed back valve, now in it's "open" position. If the butterflies are then completely opened, the pump piston will lower itself under its spring tension, overcoming the ball checks and weights, and squirting fuel from the pump jets. Here, I believe, the jet in the side of the exhaust or bleed back jet allows excess fuel in the pump, pushed by the pump spring, to exhaust back into the float bowl rather than continue to be squirted from the pump jets until the pump is empty. The size of the bleed back jet will determine how long the squirts from the pump jets will last. That is, the bleed back jet has two openings. One on top that fills the pump as throttle closes, and one on it's side that bleeds back, or exhausts fuel from the pump chamber back into the bowl, at a metered rate.
So no Eric, you do not misunderstand. I am, after all, the master of the confused and incorrect. If you look at the picture sent earlier, you can understand the multiple function of the bleed back valve, and also why, in racing, it is often a good idea to use a valve with a larger side metered opening, than a (street) smaller numbered jet.
From the picture, you can see only one way for fuel to enter the system, to allow it to drip from the pump jets. Obviously, vacuum will suck more out of these jets, if for some reason, the ball check and weight above is compromised.
As to that compromise, a pressurized float bowl would do it, as will a huge exhaust or bleed back jet, ONLY IF the check valve fails.
Now I get to open a real can-'o-worms. Weber vibration is an evil force. There. I said it. If Webers vibrate correctly, float needles will wear undesirable divots in the float needle rest tab. Float levels can vary, or even stick. It is possible, but impossible for me to prove, that the ball check we just discussed, might leak. Weber conversions lacking outboard front plate support in the form of a PLATE, fastened down low on the block with a rod, will vibrate. Now, more worms. The solid, beautifully machined aluminum connectors that replace the old rubber insulators between Weber and manifold, will only make this worse. The rubber flex was there for a reason, and aluminum insulators or isolators neither insulate or isolate your Weber from the manifold. ANY engine vibration is transmitted to the Weber body, shaking internals at various frequencies. Causing pump jets to drip as check balls and weights rattle around? Maybe, I don't know.
Try this. If your bleed back or exhaust jet is bigger than #80, try 80's. If that does not fix it, and you have checked the ball checks, check the ball check weights. Your 45DCOE14's should be brass. If that does not fix it, and your Webers are correctly mounted, and you do not have the pretty aluminum insulators / isolators, have someone pull up on both Webers while you accelerate, and look in your mirror for dripping. If lifting up on both Webers stops the drip, you have a problem I haven't mentioned.
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Thanks Gordon. Some more things to check in the pump circuit. I don't think vibration is the issue, as everything is proper with the mounts.

Erik
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