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Alfa Romeo enthusiasts,
I need some help.
I really like the Alfa Romeo Guilia Sprint GTA so I have commissioned Alfaholics to build me a version and I need some help determining which version I should build.
I know that your in-depth knowledge of these car is far superior to my own.
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Any chance you can help me with a history lesson? Or maybe some images or what I should be aiming for as far as visual cues and design correctness?
I really like the 1966-1968 version with the flat dash and the lightweight 2 piece door handle but do I want to replicate the 1600 or the 1300? Which version was the most rare? Pros and cons of each?
I think if my research is correct the 1600 had a non wood dash and the 1300 had the wood veneer dash?
Was there anything specific to each of those models on the interior or exterior that I should be considering for Alfaholics to emulate?
Also as far as paint colors I believe the GTA only came in white and red both having black interiors. Was there anything unique that I can be adding to make my example special?
I really want to go with the red/black version but I know that they have made so many of that combination and I would like to find something, even if it is something very small, to make my build special and unique. Maybe a period correct wood steering wheel? Or painting the rims the gold color of the Alfa Romeo 33 Stradale prototipo (see photo)?
Any help or push in the right direction would be helpful and appreciated.
Thanks,
Luvponi
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It appears you might be new to the Alfa Romeo world, so I will give you some advice, but it is just my opinion. Alfisti really know their Alfas, so to save yourself questions about whether it is real or not and 'that is not right' comments constantly, below the clover leaf on the side, I'd put the word Replica on each side.

Alfaholics know GTAs very well so I would talk to them. Personally the Guilia GT is a wonderful car too. I'd just put the GTA openings in the front and leave the rest alone
Best
Pete
 

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Hi luvponi -- welcome to AlfaBB!

I think your questions aren't really about Alfa history but rather about a very specific model, and thus should live in the 1965-1975 GTA sub-forum (maybe one of the admins or moderators can move it).

That being said, it seems you like the look of the car. The GTA sub-forum documents and/or discusses many cars by chassis number. I think it's an excellent reference of how these cars evolved during and after production (with some heated debates over what is or isn't real and/or correct). From the pictures in that thread (see Google image search results here), you might be able to piece together what features you like. And, as Pete pointed out, make sure that your car has some distinguishing features that will make observers never question that you or somebody else in the future may want to pass it off as fake.

Over time, the banks brothers at Alfaholics has made many options available that make the cars more reliable, more drivable, and faster when used with more modern engines. So, I'm again with Pete in suggesting that you should talk to Alfaholics -- specifically with respect to the driving experience you want (street or track or just show) and/or the driving skill level you have (as they may create a beast you may not be able to handle). Conversations I had with them at the 2009 AROC convention in Portland gave me the impression that they will never try to upsell you -- which probably has not changed: My impression was that, for them, a happy customer is someone who truly enjoys the car -- both in terms of looks as well how it feels while driving.
 

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In the past 20 years any version of the Stepnose could be made to look like the original GTA, but now we have the technology and parts where GTA fans like yourself if you choose can build cars that are even better than the originals in their finish and assembly and presentation and mechanical reliability, as companies like Alfaholics and private individuals have shown. It may be these cars will be used and on the roads more often than the GTAs built in the 60's.

It may be that you are building the car to drive on a Sunday, but if it turns out later you want to campaign it in historic race series in the UK you may need to find out what year the homologated changes/parts need to stop.

Since you are flexible with regards to which version, your own research may include the FIA homologation reports for the GTA see FIA 1395 for the 1600. This will give you the insight as to what parts came into existence and in what years. Also consult the factory parts catalogue for the GTA/GT/GTVeloce/GTC

While you are doing that also look at the donor car you are planning to use, if it's a GT Veloce 1600, these were also FIA homologated with some of the GTA parts, see FIA 5126.

The braking system will determine what other opportunities your car can take advantage of.

The GTA's moved from their unique GTA up rights with an adapter to Dunlop brakes, to later using ATE brakes with an adapter

The GT Veloce 1600 also moved from a standard upright (Dunlop) to Dunlop brakes using an adapter to using the same upright with a Dunlop to ATE adapter (Group 2 version see FIA 5126) and ATE brakes to solid upright and ATE brakes.

In 1967 The braking system for the GT Veloce 1600 changed 3 times and the body changed once. For the GTA 1600 the braking system changed twice.

The 2021 FIA historic rules that apply to the UK will have been examined and taken advantage of by Alfaholics. So looking at the Alfaholics race car could be a starting point with regards to body and braking system.

With the FIA theme being taken on board I would use either left or right hand drive donor cars of 1965 -66 GT Sprint 1600 or a 1966-Mid 67 GT Veloce 1600, that have deep rear arches and Dunlop brakes (Its possible some 1966-67 LHD GT Veloce cars were optioned up as Group 2 cars with ATE brakes prior the RHD versions).

Ideally for Dunlop braked cars if you can't find a 1965-66 GT Sprint you would want one of the GT Veloce 1600 Dunlop braked cars which were in existence from say 1966 to about Mid 1967.
If you are not fussed about the early Dunlop aspect of the GTAs and want to try the GTA ATE version of the brakes then you would be looking for a GT Veloce 1600 Group 2 car as a donor car, see FIA 5126.

Of course you could still use the following donor cars late 1967-8 GT Veloce 1600 or 1968-9 GTJ 1300 which have shallow rear arches but the body may not be eligible. I would also not use a 1966-7 GTJ 1300 deep or shallow rear arch car for the reason you could be forced to use a 1300 motor.

Good luck in your project
Steve
 

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Hi Luvponi

All good advice above, but for me I don't understand your request....

A replica, well is a replica, nice to own, because mostly 25-50% the cost of an original.....

I do not think Alfaholics build "replicas", they do a wonderful take on a modernized GTA, ie lookalike but modern Alfa 75? running gear. Yes, it looks like a '65 GTA but much different.

(I have nothing but praise for Alfaholics having done business with the Bank's family for more than 45 years...their work, passion and parts are truly excellent....)

If you want to understand what parts an original GTA possessed may I suggest the books of Alleggerita by Adriaensens/Dasse - expensive, but worth every penny, two volumes with second listing every GTA option....

Apologies, if off topic....just trying to understand your needs...

Richard
 

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It's simple the driving experience is close to the original GTA. Luvponi is just asking for a date to aim for, like what FIA Homologated parts should be used on say a 1965 car.

Building a car that looks like a GTA today we are talking about a car that can be built with just about all the GTA replica components and lightened with alloy body panels and magnesium parts so the driving experience is close to the original.

In the past people thought nothing of upgrading their steel car with a 2L engine and bigger ATE brakes(cultural trend). The surviving GT 1600 especially the 1963-1965 years did become donor cars for the GTA look a likes with 2L engines etc in the 80's, 90's, The GT Veloces1600 were often not targeted as there were fewer made in 1965.
 

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Well it depends. If Luvponi has ordered a GTA-R, it will not drive like an original GTA it will drive considerably better. I actually hope Luvponi has ordered a GTA-R, because putting the GTA grills in the front of a GT to make it look a bit like a GTA is one thing, but ripping the steel panels off a GT and riveting on alloy panels upsets me, and I have to bite my tongue with my hate of these types of replicas

So I will not say more on this subject
Pete
 

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Luvponi has asked for a GTA replica car : A replica means 1960's nostalgia and going to the core of the GTA car that won the races in the 60's. Putting an alloy body on a GT 1600 or GT Veloce 1600 can be done as we have seen.

GTA-R means a modernised 105 car the final evolution of the cultural pass time/process of putting 2L and a LSD in a GTJ1300.

Both cars give an unquiet driving experience only the GTA replica will be able to give you close to the original GTA driving experience, while the GTA-R won't as Pete pointed out.
 

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Agree, but find me a Cobra or Ford GT40 replica that does not have considerably more power than the originals did, so the term replica really just means 'something that approximately looks like the real thing'. Could have a Ford Mondeo underneath and still be a GTA replica.

But yes Luvponi's comments about the correct dash, etc. makes it appear that he is aiming for an accurate replica ... really trying to stay out of this thread :)
Pete
 

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We are all past the ' I'll put a 2L engine' or any other engine under the bonnet to power a GTA replica. With the wide variety of parts currently available it would be easy to build a close copy of a GTA with the correct engine and other parts.
Pete to use your analogy: If I was to build a replica of a GT40 I would build one that matched the look and power of one that Paul Hawkins (an Australian driver) and Hobbs raced and won Monza 1000kms in 1968.

Luvponi is not wanting to build any old replica, Luvponi is wanting to build an 'actual' replica of a car that would have been eligible to line up on the grid in 1965 say for a GTA. This is where the FIA homologation documents which are original primary documents and the Alfa parts catalogues play a part in the process. All these documents are readily available along with books which are secondary documents that have some pictures in them that may be useful.
Regards Steve
 

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The original GT40 was actually built with a pretty wide range of power and there was a lot of powerplant experimentation and rule changes while it was actively campaigning. Original GT40s included everything from road versions making 300hp to the 7.0 version making almost 500 (and both 4 and 5 speed transmission were used at various times). Just about any period Ford v8 displacing between 4.2 and 7 liters on webers could be argued to be at least plausibly original on that car.

Likewise, there were a lot of different motors that powered Alfa GT race cars from a 1300 GTA JR making 95bhp to the GTA-SC that made 250. So even if you decide you want something that's period correct (as opposed to a restomod like the GTA-R) there's a question between building a generally period correct GTA or building a replica of a specific car.

So I guess the question for the OP is whether there is a specific GTA grabs your fancy. Some replicas are harder than others. Something like a GTA-SA would be quite difficult to replicate exactly. If you believe this, there have been only about 10 such motors in the world:

Alfa Romeo Giulia 1600 GTA/SA Autodelta engine 1966-1967 | Classic Driver Market
 

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Thanks Nealric,
that's what I was trying to say 'a generally period correct GTA' and in doing so yes 'there's a question' say if it's a year specific car and or a driver specific car then choose a year /driver that gives you a period correct GTA car.
Regards Steve
 

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I raced an ex Leo Bertorelli MK1 1750 GTV. It was entered as a std GTV for the British touring Car Championship and raced by LB at the British GP in a support race. It had full GTA suspension, running gear and transmission including rear axle I think Ohlin shocks entered by the UK Alfa Dealer Team. Fitted a later 1800 engine a bit lighter than std cars had just a few hundred miles on the speedo this was a real cheat car as nobody understood Alfas even then. I also registered it to use on the road in race trim. The real joy was the way it went around corners I messed around with wheel and tyre sizes but best on the std set up. You might want to consider a GTAM rep as the bigger engine in a good state of tune is nicer to drive plus the choice of wheel and tyre sizes make for a more rounded package remember to use the gearing to suit your engine build.
I got bored with the car sold it and raced with no joy at all a Royal RP11 F3 car again tyres are the big issue and 2 engine builds a year soon stopped me racing. Now I have just got back into Alfa's 30 years later with an S2 Spider will use it just on the road.
 

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Hi Etypebernard
The MK1 1750 GTV could race in FIA races (upto Jan 1972 when the rules changed) with many parts original to the GTA. Here are just some of the GTA body parts the 1750 GTVs could use, which would make them lighter.
Regards Steve

The 1750 GTV could race under FIA rules with aluminum doors and boot lid. The 1750 GTV was allowed to have aluminum doors and boot lid in one of two ways. The first way was to use any 1750 GTV LHD car (starting from body number AR 1350001) or 1750 GTV RHD car (starting from body number AR 1450001) and then use homologation FIA 1565 Group 2 plus the FIA rules of 1st Jan 1970 and have them installed to run in FIA Group 2 in 1970/71.

or
The second way was to use any 1750 GTV USA LHD car (starting from body number AR 1350001) that had been homologated as a GTAm and this time use the homologation FIA 1576 Group 2 variation 3/2V and have them installed to run in FIA Group 2 in 1970/71. In 1972 FIA rules changed and 1750 GTVs could not race with aluminum doors and boot lid in FIA events. Source FIA documents Alfa Romeo parts catalogues
 

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I raced an ex Leo Bertorelli MK1 1750 GTV. It was entered as a std GTV for the British touring Car Championship and raced by LB at the British GP in a support race. It had full GTA suspension, running gear and transmission including rear axle I think Ohlin shocks entered by the UK Alfa Dealer Team. Fitted a later 1800 engine a bit lighter than std cars had just a few hundred miles on the speedo this was a real cheat car as nobody understood Alfas even then. I also registered it to use on the road in race trim. The real joy was the way it went around corners I messed around with wheel and tyre sizes but best on the std set up. You might want to consider a GTAM rep as the bigger engine in a good state of tune is nicer to drive plus the choice of wheel and tyre sizes make for a more rounded package remember to use the gearing to suit your engine build.
I got bored with the car sold it and raced with no joy at all a Royal RP11 F3 car again tyres are the big issue and 2 engine builds a year soon stopped me racing. Now I have just got back into Alfa's 30 years later with an S2 Spider will use it just on the road.
Hello Bernard, and welcome to the Alfa BB. I do not want to hijack this thread and start posting about Leo Bertorelli's GTV and GTAm in this thread but would like to hear more. If you have any pictures and remembrances about the GTV (VPK 40 I think) during your stewardship or about LB or the GTAm please start a new thread in the history forum or the GT forum. I have one picture of VPK 40? under Bertorelli 1971/72?

Regards

Ken
 
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Thanks for info, the car was LHD via I think a Gulf state to avoid paying duty. When I purchased it it had been sitting in a Alfa dealers yard for many years long forgotten by LB's family. I have no idea what the regs were for the UK BTCC. It still had the Silverstone scrutineers ticket on the ignition key along with its racing numbers and Dealer Team stickers. It did breakdown during that race as the engine builder made a mistake with front cover gaskets putting the wrong one on half covering the main oil route. It did this with me and kept over heating after several attempts to solve the problem I replaced the unit with a 2 litre for racing in UK national clubman's classes. At the time it had a low value and need some bodywork. I forget the year it was raced by LB but he did have a collection of Alfa's including a GTAm.

I still think a fully prepared 2.0 with bodywork to enable wheels and tyres to be selected to suit the conditions would be my choice. My friend Peter has raced a Giulietta for many years with a 1300 often beating cars with larger engines. His car always looks good going around Eau-rougue but like me he has stopped racing although he still owns his car a wise man.
 

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Here's what I would do.

EXTERIOR

Start with a step nose Sprint GT, 1600 GTV, early GT junior
GTA grill and vents on step nose
remove both bumpers
Aluminum door panels and exterior door pulls
Aluminum trunk/boot lid
Aluminum hood
GTA licence light holder and Carrello lights
6x14 or 7x14 Campy repros
Consider the rivet on rear fender flares with 7" wheels
Paint red or white
Some Autodelta stickers on the side

ENGINE and ENGINE BAY

Use a euro 1750 motor as it looks like a 1600 and has other advantages
Install and oil recuperator and GTA oil cap
Reposition the fuse box to GTA location
Use a Repro GTA FRP dynamic air box and snorkel

INTERIOR

Install a simple roll bar, maybe with back bracing
Get some GTA repro seats or sporty alternates
Install GTA repro interior door pulls
GTA repro floor mats.
Use a Sprint GT or GTA repro dash in Gray
Use a GTA repro steering wheel.

Ken





 
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