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Recirc works by itself when outside temp is high enough,. Usually when you hit any other function it shuts auto off.
But when you set the temp to LO, it doesnt matter which mode you are in (ECON or AUTO) the A/C kicks in... atleast that what I understand

Charles, could you gimme a list of all parts that are needed along with seals etc and their prices, it would also help if you can tell me where you get them from.

thanks,
-Pavan
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
I got my A/C parts from Jason. Expansion Valve, Receiver/Dryer. POA valve from Alfa Parts Exchange. I was able to replace some of the seals from the auto parts store seal kit, but some I had to reuse because the kit didn't have the size in it and they were in good shape. I would guess Alfa has a seal kit? Might want to inquire from Jason about that before you get into it deap. ;) Vacuum pump from eBay, new SPX/Robinair, model 15600 and Acme inlet adapter #15495. My compressor was apparently still good. :D The old Expansion valve was plugged up at the screen. I have been busy plugging the hole in the false firewall at the point where the hard A/C line goes through on the rightside of the engine compartment. That is the side where the air is taken in from and I suspect a LOT of hot air can get sucked in to the A/C intake there if it is not sealed up good. HVAC silver aluminum tape works great patching up the F/F as well. Also noticing my A/C filter needs replaced. :eek: Has anyone come up with a good way to keep dirt out of the air intake? I'm thinking of cutting a piece of the very course blue fiberglass HVAC filter material to cover the top of the air intake to keep the very big stuff like leaves out of the air intake before they even get to the cabin filter, seems like it would be a good solution.
Charles
 

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Don't get too used to 134a, as they are beginning to phase that out as well. I think the Euros have a 2011 deadline, and the States are thinking about maybe 2015 or so, but so far a viable substitute has not been picked by anyone.
 

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Hi,

Del is right. As of 2011 new cars leaving the factory will be R744 equipped and as of 2017 R134a will be phased out.

R744 is actually Carbon Dioxide and it is called natural refrigerant having Global Warming Potential (GWP) equal to 1.

For the history, R134a has GWP = 1300 where R12 had GWP = 8100 so the reason why all these chemicals are phased out is obvious...

Regards,
 

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Discussion Starter · #46 ·
Makes good since, when you put it like that. I have not done the research on it. ;) I just hope all the "old" cars can be made to use the new refrigerant, easy enough.
Charles
 

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I would not worry about the demise of 134a so quickly. Look how long R-12 has been out of production. It is readily available to licensed AC techs around the country except maybe in California. The price has stabilized to around $35 dollars a can. Both Freeze12 and 134a are in $5 price range a can wholesale ( 134a was $2.25 in the spring) . If the government has not totally done away with R-12 at this point, what makes you think 134a is going to go away so quickly.
 

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That may be true, however, shops in some areas will not fill with R12 at all. I had to search for a shop which would use it last year, and I got charged an arm and a leg above the stated price of the R12. I read where the Feds are planning to be much more strict about not allowing the continued use of a discontinued refrigerant. Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure that if one lived in a border city, such as El Paso, etc, there would plenty of illegal supplies of whatever from Mexico. Heck, that's where most of the R12 comes from now anyway.
 

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how can you say that a compressor is good or bad?? mine used to engage and disengage fine when there was freon in there.... since there is zero freon now, it doesnt even engage now... -Pavan
 

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Pavan - There is a low pressure switch on the Receiver Drier that must be jumped if recharging using guages ( I like my new AC recovery/charge system - recharges input charge level in less than 1 minute ).

R12 can be bought at regular parts stores - Autozone, O'Reilly, Pep Boy's, without any trouble - as long as you have the license. I have been licensed for about 6 years. There is a legal system in place to buy and dispose of R-12 if you are licensed. Some states have taken it to an extreme ( California ) and no longer allow and/or heavily regulate R-12. Do not assume the R-12 out there is bought on some back corner because it has come from questionable sources. Smuggling R-12 into the US is a federal offense, treated just like you have brought drugs across the border.

As a shop owner, as a general rule we do not use R-12. According to EPA regs you must have guages and equipment for every type of AC system you work on. You can not share AC tools that are exposed to the actual refrigrant because of contamination. A lot of shops will retrofit your system to 134a if it requires work. The cost of having all the tools to work on R-12 is high especially if you do not see enough jobs that require them to pay for their continued presence in your shop.

Cost wise, I personally use Freeze 12 in R-12 systems because of the cost. At full retail a can of R-12 pays for a charge of Freeze 12. If you have a leak, it gets expensive to put in R-12 when you know it is going to escape the system. For a lot of customers, they are not willing to go to the full expense of a 134a conversion - not all 134a conversions are created equally.
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
I started my recharge with the fan jumpered at the switch on the receiver/dryer to get it going early in the process but, didn't need to jumper the compressor. It came on right away and don't really even remember it kicking in, but obviously it did. ;) Did I mention just how nice my car is with working A/C. Sweeeeeet! :D:D:D:D:D:D Investing in a vacuum pump was a good idea I think, and I have learned a lot in the process, which is partly the point, at least for me. Maybe now I can learn how to rebuild my old motor? :eek: :D
Charles
 

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Have relatives living in El Paso, and he is a real car buff and autocrosser, and he says there are lots of Mexican sources of whatever you want. Down in those areas, the word "illegal" doesn't mean much. Quite a bit of "illegal" stuff available over the counter it appears. "Federal Offense" doesn't seem to scare many Americans it seems for many things. I didn't ask where the R12 came from, but it did cost a lot. It's also a "Federal Offense" to just dump the R12 overboard, instead of recycling.

I may try Freeze 12 next time, but I've not been able to confirm positive things about it, can you confirm it works ok without harming the existing system?
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
I had actually bought some Freeze12 and still have it. I read up on it and decided it was not a good option for me. I wanted a system that a shop down the road could/would actually touch after the retrofit. I found many reference to it and this snippet contains the main reasons why I decided against it. "Freeze12 is a blend of 80%134a and 20%142b. In a mineral oil system it is the 142b that carries the oil throughout the system. Since freeze12 is a blend of two different gases it is even more important that the leaks be fixed because the gases leak at different rates in this case the 142b leaks first so in a leaky system you could loose the ability to carry the oil. Of all the Alternatives freeze12 is the easiest because all you need to do is change the fittings, pull a vacuum and charge the system to 80% of the r12 capacity, affix the label and thats it. Your sucess will depend on the health of the system components like the compressor and condenser. In a full 134a retro you typically replace the dessicant, seals and flush out the mineral oil and change to POE oil. Freeze12 gets around all those requirements but your sucess depends again on the health of all the components. In your case a healthy r12 system that leaked out is a good candidate and real easy for a Do-it-yourselfer. " I just didn't want to mess with it after reading many references on the web about it. But I am sure it gets cold like any other Freon.
Charles
 

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Have relatives living in El Paso, and he is a real car buff and autocrosser, and he says there are lots of Mexican sources of whatever you want. Down in those areas, the word "illegal" doesn't mean much. Quite a bit of "illegal" stuff available over the counter it appears. "Federal Offense" doesn't seem to scare many Americans it seems for many things. I didn't ask where the R12 came from, but it did cost a lot. It's also a "Federal Offense" to just dump the R12 overboard, instead of recycling.

I may try Freeze 12 next time, but I've not been able to confirm positive things about it, can you confirm it works ok without harming the existing system?
I use to bring cans of the Dupont R12 from Mexico all the time in my back pack.
They never blinked an eye at it, actually checked my bags and let me through; this was around 1999. But I know they are cracking down on Mexican black market R12.
Just convert over to R134, if you have to convert again to the new stuff in 2017 so be it, you have 10 years to prep for it.

Here is some info about the smuggling I did (which I did not know at the time) Just went for the cheaper stuff and did it myself.

http://www.cec.org/trio/stories/index.cfm?ed=9&ID=109&varlan=english

Jason
 

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There is no question that ozone depleting chemicals are a huge problem, and that finding a suitable substitute is also a big problem. Different mixes of chemicals and gases have been tried as substitutes, but so far nothing works quite as well as R12. The "designed for" 134a system in my LS is just ok but 134a is also not too ozone friendly either.

The bottom line is that we with older R12 cars will always end up with marginal a/c from now on if it becomes totally unavailable, regardless of what we use as a substitute. Granted, I don't use a/c much at all, except if I drive to Texas (ugh), or use it to clear foggy windows, but still... LOL, I could clear the windows in my old mini without leaving my driver's seat.
 

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All of the Alfa my shop here in Houston services if not converted to 134a, use Freeze 12. Many of my friends shops that strictly work on American and Japanese cars use Freeze 12. It is an EPA approved drop-in replacement for R-12. Now the term drop-in is not as easy as it sounds.

My 88 Verde and my 91 164S both use Freeze 12 exclusively. Both came to me with leaks in the AC system. I repaired the leaks, replaced the receiver drier, pulled the vacuum, and recharged.

Here in Houston we use AC year round. In the summer months on May to late Sept, it is a must unless you like being soaking wet. The high humidity does not help matters. My 164 as long as you are not in stop and go traffic puts out cold air in the 38-42 range. If you encounter stop and go or and accident/road construction the vent temps climb to the low to mid 50's. With a black car and dark interior with tinted windows it could be 120-140 degrees inside the car by mid day. It will take the S about 5 minutes to get the car comfortable.

Many customers will not want to do a full 134a conversion if their AC system needs a minor repair. The cost of both refrigerants wholesale is within a $1 of each other. Most people who complain about Freeze 12 have never used it. I figure I go through 5 or 6 cases of it a year. Until 134a is replaced Freeze 12 will be on the market for R-12 cars.
 

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.

If you encounter stop and go or and accident/road construction the vent temps climb to the low to mid 50's. With a black car and dark interior with tinted windows it could be 120-140 degrees inside the car by mid day. It will take the S about 5 minutes to get the car comfortable.
This is why I added my "Florida" manual override switch to turn on high speed fan relay. I had to find a way to cool my car quicker after it sat in parking lot at work all day and then crawling through rush hour traffic on the way home.

My son has taken it a step farther on his two 164s in that he installed a three postion switch and can engage either low or high speed fan relays.

Even here in VA it is hot and humid and being able to run fan helps a/c get cooling faster and controls engine temp in stop and go traffic.
 

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I have by passed the low speed resistor to get the same effect. Only a month left for summer!!

This year has been abnormally cool because of storm fronts and much higher than average rain fall. This summer it is melting hot or raining.. usually raining. It has rained something like 75% of the summer.
 

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I have done that too in the past or when resister is bad but you can't get fan to start until freon pressure builds up to about 200-215 psi that way.
 
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