[Alfissimo Int.]

How well will this work with the original expansion valve? Maybe I should just buy a set of A/C hoses from a '94-'95 from APE? Will they bolt right in and make for the utimate retrofit job?
Charles

Replace the expansion valve with a New one, they are all R134a now and will work with R12 but not the other way.
I found out that problem just recently when my new expansion valve crapped out on me, I used my old r12 and it produced higher temps. Finally replaced with a new R134A and I am getting 38˚F from the vents on a 100˚F + day.
I suggest buying the 24V hoses, flushing them several times with mineral spirits, both ways, also flush evap (not POA valve though) . Replace R/D (R134 specific so 24V), Expansion valve, HNBR o-rings, pressure switch if you see fit, might as well, POA valve from a 24V as they are calibrated for R134a and the R12 may be OK but you may not get optimum results.
You may be OK with existing condenser if not clogged and fins in good condition. May want to get a fin straightner and try to flush condenser while your at it to clear any debris!
You can't use the 24V hose from POA to compressor though.
I used the compressor to cond and cond to R/D.
I was lucky and the POA to Compressor was already r134 rated.

Good luck, you should get good results if done right. Evacuate no less than 1 hour.
Nylog is a good thing to have as well. Put on threads and O-rings for a good seal, also keeps seals from drying out.

Jason

 

[Alfissimo Int.]

What is a good flushing system/method? I thought dryers were refrig. specific as well, but I only see vendors selling one, or do I buy one for a '94-'95 model? Thanks for the tip on the Nylog. By POA you mean expansion valve? Can I have my old hoses converted to R134a at a hose supply? Gosh I'm full of Q's.
Charles

Pour some Mineral spirits in one end while plug the other swish it around to loosen dirt and oil then Push compressed air through it while using a towel on one in to give some back pressure, blow it all out one direction and then do it again the other direction. Several times should do it.

POA valve is the low side valve on the right side of the car next to the timing belt.
To my knowledge with the POA is that when people convert and use the old r12 POA valve which is calibrated to R12 they have less than stellar results.This is one reason why people say you won't have good results regardless. Replacing the unit with the R134 POA from a 24V should result in cooler temps, may only be 5˚F or so but that is huge for an A/C system. Or have your A/C guy adjust the current one you have.

Dryers are all r134 now and can be used for R12 but again not the other way.
To not make any mistakes always order one for the 24V just in-case the vendor still has some old R12 laying around. I think at this point they are all the same though! Sorry for confusion, I said it was specific basically so that you would not get a NOS r12. R134a compatible filters one which contains XH7 or XH9 desiccant
12V-60510695
24V-60590126

If have not done so, Flush the compressor with a "quality" POE oil like BVA Auto 100 and when it comes out clean your done.

You can easily have your hoses converted which will probably be cheaper than APE. No flushing needed at this point.

As long as it is all done properly you should get good results even with the old condenser. But of course I highly recommend to change it as this is one of the main components that needs changing for R134 for best results. Like I said I am getting 38-39˚F from the vents on a 100˚F day, sitting in traffic I get about 40-47˚F.
Just a tip as well, when you first get in, run it on high until circulation comes on then turn it down to 3 speed for best cooling.

Expansion valves are all r134 now. I just had some fun this week changing out mine, I had a bad one, only producing 55˚F maybe 60˚F from the vents, put a new OEM one in and bam 38-39˚F




Hops that helps?
Jason

 

[Alfissimo Int.]

Do you sell the R134a POA valve? I haven't seen it listed with any vendors. Thanks for your tips! The only other A/C work I have done was converting my old 190E years ago to R134a and it colded down plenty well with no new parts but a new compressor!
Charles

The reason is, it is N/A. Used one is your only choice or calibrate yours and the one I had I used.
I may be able to get one for you and maybe all the lines.

In europe they did not use these so Thats another option, you could have a line made with a low side valve in place of the POA and call it a day. The European systems are exactly the same minus this.
Jason

 

[Alfissimo Int.]

I found this website interesting on the retrofit. http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/oneshop.html At the bottom of the page it says "Imports" and talks about adjusting the POA valve adjustment screw one quarter turn counter-clockwise, but this may be for a Toyota or Nissan. I think the cardisc calls the P.O.A. valve an E.P.R. valve? Don't see where you would adjust this thing?
Charles

I think you adjust it from inside. I will shoot a pic today for you where I think you adjust it.

here is a simple conversion chart:

 

[Alfissimo Int.]

I thought Ester Oil was the preferred oil to use when doing a retrofit? I assume when all mineral oil has been removed or almost the whole system is new and the rest is thoroughly flushed, PAG oil could be used like in a standard R134a system? I assume the Estaer oil I added to the compressor (70% of the compressor capacity) is ALL the oil I need to add for the WHOLE system?
Charles

According my all my sources PAG is fine. The above info is directly from SANDEN!
http://www.sanden.com/support/RETRO.html
I used PAG

Usually the Compressor can hold around 6 ounces alone. So that should be good enough for the whole system.



I will try to get more info later...
Jason

 

[Alfissimo Int.]

I'm jealous of Jason's 38 degree temp on 134a. I just drove back to Phoenix Monday and the ambient temp read an average of 108 with a high of 113. I just had my compressor filled with refridgerant and it only blew 55 degrees so I was very concerned with how I'd feel on the trip out. Needless to say on full blast it was just comfortable enough! On pos 3 it was not cool enough. I don't have any leaks so I'm not too sure if it's my condensor or another factor but with my black on black leather and factory window tint I need to figure out the problem. On another note, I drove back today and didn't use the air until Yuma. It was in indicated 97 degrees and when I went to use the air it felt really cold, I ran it and 2nd pos all the way to El Centro where it was was 105 and from there to San Diego it was great on 2. I don't know if the extra 5-8 degrees on Monday would account for the difference in cabin temp or is my system running cooler after the outbound trip. Doesn't sound logical does it?

Don't be. Still bloody hot since I have no tint and black seats. I am waiting for the new tint to come out, the clear stuff like on the Merc.'s that blocks the actual radiant heat up to 75% or something like that.
There are a lot of factors that play with this stuff, ambient temps, humidity, airflow over the condenser, engine compartment temps etc...
I can get up to 55˚F sitting on a semi humid day! but once moving I can get back down to low 40's.


Jason

 

[Alfissimo Int.]

According to this website: http://www.polarbearinc.com/PBPC/homepage/products_Chem1.html PAG 100 which is the middle viscosity should be used in the Sanden SD-709 Compressor with R134a. Which is the equivalent of the Sanden SP-20 PAG oil.
Charles

Exactly what I am using as well. They don't recommend ester oil, sanden nor my guys, Arizona mobile air.

Jason

 

[Alfissimo Int.]

Well, I disagree about using PAG oil in retrofit and Polarbear feels same way I do read this: http://www.polarbearinc.com/Trouble11_charging.htm

I use Ester 100 http://www.polarbearinc.com/PBPC/homepage/products_Chem2.html

And yes 4.6 oz for whole system with expansion valve like 164 has.

As for using PAG oil if you remove compressor invert and drain all mineral oil out and flush out sytem OK if not use Ester oil.

See these steps http://www.sanden.com/support/RETRO.html from Sanden site Jason posted flow chart from yes it calls for PAG oil after you have drained compressor, lines and discarded old receiver dryer. Let your own judgement be your guide on the PAG vs Ester issue. But I like to error on the Ester side since I doubt you can get all the mineral oil out without full system flush.

As for question on NAPA fittings yes I would remove R12 fitting valve cores first as new fitting have valve cores and thread sealant.

Well I am not positive on what to use but if you have ester in there just use that.
I completely flushed my system about 6 times. Flushed the compressor about that many or more to make sure all debris was out and oil.
I replaced R/D, expansion valve a few times, o-rings, lines, pressure switch and POA valve.
ACKits was aware of my retro fit and said to use PAG 100. Or maybe all I heard was 100? So I said do what you will!
If your not going all the way use the Ester as Steve says.

I can say I have had very good results with the oil so far.
Flushing the whole system is very easy. You have to replace all the o-rings might as well flush it all out.

Jason
EDIT: to be honest I can't remember if it was PAG or POE!?! I could swear by PAG but I could be mistaken. I will have to call on monday now and check. LOL! Not 100% as I am sure since I flushed they could have gone both ways

 

[Alfissimo Int.]

Sure, I'm still getting it all together though, and trying to figure out my options. One could spend a heap and one could spend very little, but one system would cool for years and the other would probably cool for all of a week before things went downhill. So that is the difference. I am trying to make good decisions for a long lasting system, but for reasonable money.
Charles

With parts, labor oil and freon I spent about $400. Maybe slightly more since my expansion valve was bad and had to pay for another hour of labor for evac and re-install.

But I am happy with it and so far I don't think there should be any problems.
They have checked everything and all is in good order.
-----------------------------------
The things again I changed where:

expansion valve
POA valve
Pressure switch (only because I wanted it new, may be still good)
R/D
O-rings
2-hoses for R134 type.
Condenser (my choice)
Freon and Oil
-------------------------------
If you do the work yourself you can save some money I opted to have them evac the system and charge it, check it for leaks etc... I did not have time or the equipment to do it.

I am sure I will have many years of trouble free A/C. My only concern is the compressor. Although I really have not used it much since I have replaced it it may be good to go.

So good luck and my thinking was just spend the money and get it done right the first time so I don't have to think about it again! I should have replaced the compressor with a new one but that was over budget for me.

Ciao!
jason

 

[Alfissimo Int.]

Could I use a used POA valve from a 24V car and the hose from the POA valve to the compressor? I found a site that describes how to calibrate an R12 POA Valve to R134: http://www.autoacforum.com/messageview.cfm?catid=20&threadid=7567 should work on the 164 as well, but now I need an air compressor too or an air tank at the very least.
Charles

You can use the POA from a 24V, no problem. The hose may be an issue. It is a hard line that is bend to fit around the alternator.
Just takes yours to a A/C place and have them make one using your fittings, maybe $30?
All the rest you can use from the 24v.
That is the only hose that's an issue.

Just get as much from a 24V as possible, if you like I can try to get some of the parts for you? I have a POA valve here that I can calibrate if needed. I can have AMA do it.

Jason

 

[Alfissimo Int.]

Got the system working last night after much effort getting all the items together that I needed. Jason got my parts out to me same day even though he was taking off for vacation, but the vacuum pump needed to be converted to work with R134 gauges and various other items I needed like a POA valve for 134 from APE from a '94 (they sent that pretty quick too). Swapped parts, Vac'ed and charged it last night and got it down to ~42*F at the center vent, on fan setting 3 and recirc turned on. I may need to put a little more 134 in, but I will see how it works on a hot day as is. O, FYI, those little O-ring kits from the auto parts store, contain very few O-rings that fit the 164. Also, the black "Monkey doo" insulation goop is reusable, just pull it apart like silly puddy, make a strip off it and rewrap it around the pipes, it looks like new and starts to stick to your fingers very well after working with it for a bit.
Charles

Excellent news.
Hope she stays cool in the heat. I think that on a hot day with any humidity you will have about 45-47˚F, sitting in Traffic maybe around 49-51˚F, good long drive should keep in that 42˚F range.

The best way to keep the car cool is what Chazzy did at least I am assuming this. When you first get in ( I don't use auto as it keeps the fan on high due to outside temps, at least on mine) crank it on fan speed 4, recirc. off, then once it gets semi cool the recirc should go on by itself then reduce to #3 fan speed as it is actually cooler. Speed 4 raises the air temp a bit due to the speed. Better cooling once most of the heat is out of the car is on #3 or lower.

Just some advice. Auto mode should automatically do this but I am not sure it is perfect when over 100˚F at least.

Jason

 

[Alfissimo Int.]

Recirc turns off Auto mode (actually both mode lights go out), is it doing what it is supposed to? It has been a long time since this car had A/C.
Charles

Recirc works by itself when outside temp is high enough,. Usually when you hit any other function it shuts auto off.

 

[Alfissimo Int.]

Have relatives living in El Paso, and he is a real car buff and autocrosser, and he says there are lots of Mexican sources of whatever you want. Down in those areas, the word "illegal" doesn't mean much. Quite a bit of "illegal" stuff available over the counter it appears. "Federal Offense" doesn't seem to scare many Americans it seems for many things. I didn't ask where the R12 came from, but it did cost a lot. It's also a "Federal Offense" to just dump the R12 overboard, instead of recycling.

I may try Freeze 12 next time, but I've not been able to confirm positive things about it, can you confirm it works ok without harming the existing system?

I use to bring cans of the Dupont R12 from Mexico all the time in my back pack.
They never blinked an eye at it, actually checked my bags and let me through; this was around 1999. But I know they are cracking down on Mexican black market R12.
Just convert over to R134, if you have to convert again to the new stuff in 2017 so be it, you have 10 years to prep for it.

Here is some info about the smuggling I did (which I did not know at the time) Just went for the cheaper stuff and did it myself.

http://www.cec.org/trio/stories/index.cfm?ed=9&ID=109&varlan=english

Jason