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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a 95 164Q that just recently is having a will not start issue. a few days ago it would not start so I removed the battery and charged it over night. I re-installed the battery and it started up. I went to fill-up gas at a service station and it failed to start after filling gas. I removed the positive battery cable from the battery and then re-installed it. The car started up and I drove it home. The next day I went to start it up and it would not start. I measured voltage at battery and it was 12.3-12.5VDC. I removed the battery and charged it overnight again. After charging and outside of the car, the battery voltage measured 13.3VDC. I installed it into the car and measured the voltage at 12.5VDC. I tried to start the car and it would not start. I removed the battery and traded it in for a new battery. Prior to installation the battery measured 12.7 VDC. Installed into the car and connected, the voltage at the battery terminals is 12.4 VDC and will not start. With the ignition ON the in-dash battery meter shows about 11.5 VDC. When car is working properly I recall that the in-dash battery meter shows about 12.5 VDC. The check engine light is on. When I read the codes it shows 4444 (no faults stored). I lowered the fuse panel door and looked around. I found these 3 connectors. I think they were that way before, but I am not sure. I tried to find them in the electrical diagnosis manual diagrams, but could not locate them. Can anyone identify the connectors in the attached pictures? Thanks.
 

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2015 Chevy (Holden) SS, 1989 Milano (Shankle Sport), 1991 164S
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Just a couple of quick questions:

When it doesn't start does it crank but not fire, or does it not even crank when you turn the key? If it doesn't crank, have you checked the integrity of the battery ground strap and it's connection to the car?

What does the car voltage meter read with the engine running at cruise, ~3000 rpm? Should be somewhere around 13.8V to 14.2V.

Have you had the battery specifically checked for a car circuit drain when the key is turned off? If so, and if there is an indication of a drain, have you tried removing fuses to see if the drain can be isolated to a certain circuit?

If the check engine light is on, you should get a fault code.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Some answers

Thanks for the reply. It does not crank. i turn the key and have all the dash lights and gauges working, but no cranking sound. I looked that battery ground strap and it looks like it is firmly attached to an unpainted surface. I have not removed the ground strap since it looked good. It looks pretty simple so I will remove the bolt and strap and clean the area. When the car is running and I am driving down the road the in-dash battery meter is approximately 13.5 VDC. I did remove some fuses for the courtesy lamps, rear windows, hazard lights and disconnected the power antenna power, but this did not improve conditions. I have not checked the current draw when the key is turned off. What is best way to do this? The check engine light is lit. When I checked the codes, it came back with 4444. I reviewed the information in the electrical manual and see that the second loose connector photo (2 wire connector with black and grey wires) looks very close to the B!b connector (ignition switch) shown in the electrical manual, but I am not sure. I just have not found out where this connector is supposed to connect to.
 

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1991 164L
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I would try changing the I10 red stripe starter relay with diode as you may have blown the diode in it. It is the same red stripe S12b relay for the engine computer. S12b relay is located under black cover on top radiator support.

Pull that S12b red stripe relay and try it in place of I10 starter relay. If starter will now work you need another red stripe relay with diode for engine computer.

The I10 starter relay is in the top row of 6 relays under dash to right of ignition switch. Open fuse panel door and look up sort of to left and behind radio and a/c panel area. It should be above that relay area shown in your picture.

I carry spare relays in my glove box for computer, starter and fuel pump.

As for your B1 B two wire connector it goes from the key release push button system to the shifter unlock system on LS with A/T so not used on Q.

Report your test results.

Here is what red strip relay looks like from an ebay listing. I got my last two from this guy: Bosch 0332014112 Fuel Injection Relay for Land Rover BMW Jaguar | eBay
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
i tried swapping the red-stripe relay. Unfortunately, i still can not get the car to start/crank. Any insight into that B1b connector in my prior post?
 

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2015 Chevy (Holden) SS, 1989 Milano (Shankle Sport), 1991 164S
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Will that shut off the starter circuit?

The fact that the starter will not rotate means that it or the solenoid is not getting enough power. Does the relay click when the key is turned to the start position? If it clicks, there is some, but not enough, power to that starter circuit. If it does not even click, there is a power interruption to the solenoid itself. Is that connection to the solenoid ok?

If the solenoid clicks and lights dim, these symptoms are what you can get with a low battery, enough power to light things up, but not enough to fully engage the starter solenoid (it can just click) and thus starter itself. I have this problem in the LS if I leave the radio fuse in when I'm not home for a month.

One test is that if the car starts, shut it off and disconnect the battery. Let it set for a day, and reconnect the battery and try to start it. If it starts, something is draining the battery when it is hooked up.

Here is a web site which discusses checking for drains:

randysrepairshop.net/testing-for-battery-drain/

Of course, I suppose the ignition switch start position is not working or that particular wire is loosely connected.
 

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His problem is that the starter motor will not turn on.
 

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Oh. Then if all else checks out, look at the anti-theft system. Mine had to be bypassed long ago. It disables the starter relay.
 

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1991 164L
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i tried swapping the red-stripe relay. Unfortunately, i still can not get the car to start/crank. Any insight into that B1b connector in my prior post?
Re read my post above about relays for answer to B1 B connector.

Does I10 starter relay click when you turn key to start? Put your finger on it as your turn key to start. If it clicks then antitheft unit not disabling it.

If it does not click check that purple-black wire at ignition switch connector has 12v power when key in start position

If relay clicks you are going to have to troubleshoot A11 starter energizing wire for 12v when key in start position at Big round G151. It is pin 1 black wire.

If you apply 12v to pin 1 in the side of G151 connector that goes to engine bay you can see if starter will work. If not you probably have a bad starter. Don't cry if is won't work it has happened to many of us.

See the thread for much the same info I posted years ago:

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164-168-1991-1995/54005-94-164ls-not-starting.html
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Interesting results

After a morning of Christmas shopping errands, I got some time to make the suggested measurements. When I turn the key to the start position i do feel the I10 relay click. Things got interesting when I checked the pin 1 of G151. Here are my results when I turn the key to the start position: Pin 1 = 4.33VDC, Pin 2 = 4.9VDC, Pin 12 = 12.33VDC. I reviewed the G151 connector pinout in the elecrical manual to get the appropriate pins (see attached photos). I could not see the wire colors due to rubber boot around the large connector. Do I have the pin numbers right? Not sure why I get 4.33VDC on pin1 instead of 12VDC. Interesting that the pin next to pin 1, pin 12 has 12.33VDC makes me think I do not have the pin numbers and their location right, but when I have double-checked my pin out against the manual and I think I have it right. I have not tried to put 12VDC onto to pin 1 of the mating connector to see if the engine will start. I want someone to confirm that I have the pin numbers and locations correct, before I try that.
 

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To be sure you have correct pin 1 for starter power from relay pull I10 starter relay and rerun test. If your labeled in picture pin 12 is now dead you will know it is really pin 1.

If really pin 1 and you have 12v only with relay in place then put 12v power directly to female terminal for pin 1 and see if starter will or won't work.

Report your results.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I removed I10 relay and the voltage on what i thought was pin 12 dropped to a varying value of about 0.2VDC. I then applied 12VDC to the corresponding pin on the mating connector and starter did not crank. i did not hear anything when I applied 12VDC. I used the 40 amp fuse location for the 12 VDC source. I double-checked that with key in ON position the 40 amp fuse location was at 12VDC. I did not turn key to START position. I did not think I needed to do this as part of the test.
 

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You didn't even need key on for that direct power to female pin 1 test.

One last thing to check before you can for pretty sure say starter has gone bad, check grounding strap from tranny case to chassis for corrosion. Chassis ground point near rear corner of air cleaner box.

Changing starter is not one of those fun jobs and a little more challenging on a 24v model than a 12v model.

Here is how I changed starter on a 95LS about 3 years ago. Process starts at post 16 in this thread: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/164...-95ls-starter-maybe-finally-really-kaput.html
 

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I have a 95 164Q that just recently is having a will not start issue. a few days ago it would not start so I removed the battery and charged it over night. I re-installed the battery and it started up. I went to fill-up gas at a service station and it failed to start after filling gas. I removed the positive battery cable from the battery and then re-installed it. The car started up and I drove it home. The next day I went to start it up and it would not start. I measured voltage at battery and it was 12.3-12.5VDC. I removed the battery and charged it overnight again. After charging and outside of the car, the battery voltage measured 13.3VDC. I installed it into the car and measured the voltage at 12.5VDC. I tried to start the car and it would not start. I removed the battery and traded it in for a new battery. Prior to installation the battery measured 12.7 VDC. Installed into the car and connected, the voltage at the battery terminals is 12.4 VDC and will not start. With the ignition ON the in-dash battery meter shows about 11.5 VDC. When car is working properly I recall that the in-dash battery meter shows about 12.5 VDC. The check engine light is on. When I read the codes it shows 4444 (no faults stored). I lowered the fuse panel door and looked around. I found these 3 connectors. I think they were that way before, but I am not sure. I tried to find them in the electrical diagnosis manual diagrams, but could not locate them. Can anyone identify the connectors in the attached pictures? Thanks.
I would recommend you call Alfo mechanic Phil Mason in Santa Cruz at 831-479-0544. He has worked on my 95 Quad for years and knows the car inside and out.

Datta 831-818-0181
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Thanks for the recommendation. My car is with Uwe at Omega Motorsports having the starter replaced. I will be picking it up tomorrow. Can't wait. I miss driving my 164.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I picked up my car today. Uwe removed the starter and had it rebuit. He also replaced my ignition switch. My car now starts right up and is back on road. Thanks to everyone for your help and advice.

-Gil
 
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