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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Folks,

I finally merged the 91L donor car with the 93L recipient.

This meant converting the 93L recipient from AUTO Trans. to manual.
I transplanted the entire donor engine, transmission, exhaust, suspension, brakes, front and back axle assemblies.
This included the donor ECU as I believe it is different to the AUTO ECU.
A 2/3rd full tank of gas went across as well......these days gas is not to be discarded.
One thing I did not transfer was the wiring harness which at the time I thought was common to auto/trans models.
There are differences such as the reverse light and center console lights and switches etc....I think I can work around those.

About a month ago I thought I was one hour from start up.

Unfortunately the immobilizer spoiled my moment and then work and other household chores took over.
The family Prelude and 323i also needed urgent attention in the interim.
They are just as difficult if not more so than our Alfa's.
I look after too many vehicles.....

Today I was finally able to get back to the problem at hand.

I jumped the purple / purple black wires to bypass the immobilizer but to no avail.
I believe I have to also overcome the ex-auto cut-off when the transmission is not in park or neutral.
Before I get started with CARDISC are there any ideas as to how to bypass the auto/trans cut-out so that I can activate the starter?
I have located the auto trans wiring where it used to connect to the shifter and tried to jump the pins without success.

I have checked all fuses and the battery is good as well as boosted by an external power pack.
Dash lights are bright and most of the electrics seems to be OK.
The center console above the radio is not connected.

When I turn the ignition key there is a click from the left side but no starter motor action.

There is very little on this subject on the BB or Digest.

Is there anything else I should consider?

It would be great to have this car start and drive itself from beneath it's four year resting place beneath the great Live Oak into my garage for the finishing touches.......

Ta,

Neville.
 

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1991 164L
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You have to jumper gray-black and black wires together that went to neutral start switch H16 that was on A/T shifter lever.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Steve....

I jumped the auto trans PARK cut-off feature without success and was pottering around the electrics when rain stopped play out there beneath the great Live Oaks.

Whilst pottering the ECU started to chatter frantically together with an accompanying chirp in time from the alarm in the trunk.
Even after I disconnected the alarm unit it continued to wail softly until finally whatever provided power ran out - internal back up battery I wonder after all these years!!!!
I hope the ECU did not fry with all that chattering.

That was about the time the thunderheads came over and I had to retreat to the garage where I resumed work on Sophia, the newly acquired silver 164.

I think my next move will be to put back the original auto ECU and then try and establish current to the starter and back track from there.

The starter was rebuilt whilst the engine was out and I am 99.9999999% certain that area is fine.

The immobilizer light continues to blink as if telling me I have missed something obvious.

Ta,

Neville.
 

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1991 164L
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Where did you jump purple wire from ignition switch (hot in start) to purple-black wire going to starter relay under dash via N45 anti theft unit in trunk? I had to cut into purple-black wire near relay and cut into purple wire near ignition switch on Myron's LS to bypass wiring going to N45 in trunk. But I think there is a connector 241a on 12v models with those two color coded wires near shifter in console too but book says connector G241a is under dash but I think that is an error. Jumper two wires in connector going towards front of car not trunk.

Purple and jumpered purple-black wires powers starter relay I10 pin 86 and that jumpered gray-black and black wires at A/T shifter switch area grounds I10 relay coil pin 85 BUT also grounds A/T models selected gear signal relay I62 which when A/T model not in P or N also sends a signal to engine ECU so grounding gray-black to black told car it was in park or neutral and cut off power to engine ECU pin 28.

I would pull I62 relay located right side behind speedo cluster to eliminate that engine ECU issue.

You can also directly test the starter by itself down stream of relay I10 by disconnecting the big G151 round connector behind false firewall and applying 12v power to pin 1 in connector's outer row of pins in end that wires go back throuigh false firewall towards engine. I have added a test wire to that black wire to pin 1 to starter solonoid so I can test compression, test starter and start engine with a remote starter button in engine bay on Black Beauty.

Also one more connector to configure or un-configure for 5-speed conversion. It is S25 jumpered or no jumper can't remember which is 5-speed set up. It is under carpet area near engine computor in harness to ECU. Think it is a red 2-wire connecter with Green-black and black wires. If Green Jenny has jumper remove it or if 5-speed SC wreck has jumper add it to Jenny.

Please tell me which car (A/T or 5-speed) has the S25 connector jumpered so I can record it in wiring diagram.

If you still can't get starter relay I10 under dash to work I would try replacing that relay with another red stripe relay with diode as it is same relay as engine ecu one located near coil.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Wow thanks Steve,

It will take me a couple of hours to get my mind around your recommendations, but they sure beat what I had in mind as next steps.

Your tip on applying power directly to the starter is especially useful as it is what I had in mind.
I need to get the engine turning as it has been silent now for several months.

I will report back on the S25 Connector as soon as possible.

Ta,

Neville.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Folks,

At the end of a fantastic FL day today I was able to break away from work (worked from home today) and try Steve's suggestions.

Here are my findings:

First of all the alarm keeps going off at regular intervals and the pilot light on the center console continues to flash all the time.
I have to disconnect the battery to stop the alarm and even then it continues to whimper and wail for a while causing the puppies to do same.
The central locking locks and unlocks using the key, but the remote does not work even with a new battery.
I will attend to that later.....

Where did you jump purple wire from ignition switch (hot in start) to purple-black wire going to starter relay under dash via N45 anti theft unit in trunk? I had to cut into purple-black wire near relay and cut into purple wire near ignition switch on Myron's LS to bypass wiring going to N45 in trunk. But I think there is a connector 241a on 12v models with those two color coded wires near shifter in console too but book says connector G241a is under dash but I think that is an error.
This 241a connector is near where the auto (now manual) shifter is located and I jumped the forward leading side of the connection.

Jumper two wires in connector going towards front of car not trunk.
Yes did this....

Purple and jumpered purple-black wires powers starter relay I10 pin 86 and that jumpered gray-black and black wires at A/T shifter switch area grounds I10 relay coil pin 85 BUT also grounds A/T models selected gear signal relay I62 which when A/T model not in P or N also sends a signal to engine ECU so grounding gray-black to black told car it was in park or neutral and cut off power to engine ECU pin 28.
Jumped gray/black with black wire....

I would pull I62 relay located right side behind speedo cluster to eliminate that engine ECU issue.
Will look this location up in CARDISC as could not find an I62 relay and I did not yet remove the speedo cluster as mosquitoes were starting to feast....I will do this next time.

You can also directly test the starter by itself down stream of relay I10 by disconnecting the big G151 round connector behind false firewall and applying 12v power to pin 1 in connector's outer row of pins in end that wires go back throuigh false firewall towards engine.
I will have to look for location of pin 1 in CARDISC as the socket does not seem to indicate pin numbering. The wire colors would likely point me at pin 1 but I am nervous of feeding 12v to the wrong pin and frying something.....

I have added a test wire to that black wire to pin 1 to starter solonoid so I can test compression, test starter and start engine with a remote starter button in engine bay on Black Beauty.
I will likely do this once I know my way around those pins - great idea.

Also one more connector to configure or un-configure for 5-speed conversion. It is S25 jumpered or no jumper can't remember which is 5-speed set up. It is under carpet area near engine computor in harness to ECU. Think it is a red 2-wire connecter with Green-black and black wires. If Green Jenny has jumper remove it or if 5-speed SC wreck has jumper add it to Jenny.

Please tell me which car (A/T or 5-speed) has the S25 connector jumpered so I can record it in wiring diagram.
This is interesting because neither car had that S25 jumped. Both car's S25 connectors stared "jumperless" at me.
I cannot absolutely 100 percent say that I have not removed the jumper from the manual donor car but I am not in the habit of disconnecting things without a reason.
The donor car dash is off the body and lying on the seats but I have purposely left it as intact as possible, only taking off what I needed for the swap.
I will nevertheless go and look on my other manual Alfa as to whether it is jumped or not.....I can also look at my other automatic Alfa....got lots of Alfa's beneath the Live Oaks....

If you still can't get starter relay I10 under dash to work I would try replacing that relay with another red stripe relay with diode as it is same relay as engine ecu one located near coil.
Swapped this relay with the donor car without success....

I will complete the tasks above and then start to trace the wiring backwards from the starter to see whether I have left anything disconnected.
The alarm going off and center console blinking light must be telling me something.....

Ta,

Neville.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I also restored back the original auto ECU and removed the donor manual trans ECU.

Ta,

Neville.
 

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1991 164L
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I also restored back the original auto ECU and removed the donor manual trans ECU.

Ta,

Neville.
You might try holding your finger on I10 relay and see (feel) is relay clicks when you turn key to start.

Also check for power with meter at ignition switch connector at the black to purple starter relay power wire connection.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Folks,

this would have been a perfect Alfa weekend if I had managed to start Jenny from the forest......

Further analysis has eliminated as follows:

  • The rebuilt starter cranks fine as I jumped the big connector at the firewall.
  • The ignition switch is fine as I jumped the nearby connector and heard the same (relay) click I hear when turning the key.
  • Related fuses and relays have been swapped in case one of them has a latent defect.
  • All of Steve's recommendations above have been applied without success.

My conclusion is that the problem lies within the ECU and related to the alarm and immobilizer even though the alarm relay and connections are currently disabled (or so I think...).

My plan is now to repair the immobilizer and alarm which when connected, continue respectively to flash the center console pilot light and sound off at regular intervals.

I have a spare new remote key fob which I have programmed to the existing alarm unit A/B codes.

This was incredibly delicate work using an unsuitable soldering iron and I fully expect I need to purchase something far more specialized in order to tidy up the required delicate jumper connections.
I probably need my Wife to hold a magnifying glass as well.....

At that point I did not have the very special miniature 12V battery required to operate the remote fob, and I switched my attention to another Alfa......

Ta,

Neville.
 

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1991 164L
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I ain't buying that story about ECU and alarm.

Since you got starter to work by appying power to female pin socket 1 in G151 you need to also see if you can get power out of pin 1 in G151 when key turned to start.

Did you try another good red stripe relay in place of starter relay?

Did nearby relay click when you turned on key to run or start?

Do you have 12v at ignition switch connector black wire from switch with key in start position? This is wire that goes to purple wire.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks for your good input as always Steve.....I managed another half hour this evening before the mosquito onslaught.

I ain't buying that story about ECU and alarm.
Desperation....

Since you got starter to work by appying power to female pin socket 1 in G151 you need to also see if you can get power out of pin 1 in G151 when key turned to start.
I did not yet test that but assumed if pin 1 had power it would be getting through to socket 1 to turn the starter.

Did you try another good red stripe relay in place of starter relay?
I tried two red stripe relays - one from nearby the starter relay and one from the donor car.

Did nearby relay click when you turned on key to run or start?
Yes nice happy click sound every time I turn the key.

Do you have 12v at ignition switch connector black wire from switch with key in start position? This is wire that goes to purple wire.
No power from black to purple, but there is power to the switch from the big red incoming wire.
 

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Black wire from ignition switch has to have power when key in start position because it is the I10 starter relay's energizing coil power source via antitheft unit wiring.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
More findings for what they are worth:

I relocated the manual trans immobilizer box and alarm to the auto trans car to "match" it to the already relocated Motronic ECU.
This gave me power to the G151 connector and I was able to crank the starter several times until the already depleted battery finally died.
The blinking red light on the center console now goes out when I use the remote key fob from the donor car, which now of course matches the alarm system.

I re-charged the battery overnight and after reconnection tried to crank the starter, expecting thus to start solving other problems......

Alas, I am back to where I started with just a click when turning the ignition key to START position.

The black wire from the ignition switch does have 12V.

I still have the notion that the immobilizer is responsible for the lack of power to the starter. IE: The black wire to pin 1 in G151 connector has no power.
The same I62 auto trans relay as found on right behind the speedo cluster is also present in the donor manual trans car. Swapped these without success.

When I disconnect the battery (both poles) the alarm goes off until I turn it off with the key. This always happened even with the original alarm and immobilizer box.

Something not grounded or a short - back to CARDISC?
 

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Why don't you just bypass theft box to starter wiring like I said in shifter console to right of shifter? Just disconnect at connector there and jump purple to purple-black wire in front half of 2-wire connector going towards dash and be done with it. Theft and Alarm and Remote Fob system will still work for doors, etc but will not disable starter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks Steve for your endless patience and relentless input....

We shade tree mechanics beneath the huge Live Oaks depend on this great Forum to see the wood from the trees.
Out there alone I often hear myself talking out loud to myself....

I went back to basics with the voltmeter measuring every wire in the chain and finally made a sad discovery where I least expected to find a problem.

My problem was that the jumper wire across the AUTO trans switch was faulty.
Yes, it had parted within the sleeve and touched when I occasionally moved it.
Unfortunately this was my newer jumper and as such trusted.
My old and tatty jumper cable works fine.....
My usage of the old and new jumpers as well as pushing and pulling the faulty jumper gave erratic and confusing results.

With the old tatty jumper in place I had the starter cranking.

Next problem was having no gas at the rail.
After making the discovery that all the gas had leaked out over the months (remember how I relocated the two thirds full gas tank...) I also discovered there was no power to the pump.

With the fuel pump relay jumped (pink to pink white) and five new gallons of gas in the tank I had the car running great for several minutes.
Fuel pressure was 38PSI at the rail......

The leak was due to a loose connection at the fuel filter - my own fault.

Then the battery ran out......no charge from the alternator.

At that stage I had to leave things until the next opportunity.

At least the engine was running great for several minutes and Jenny is finally alive.

I still have misgivings about the alarm/immobilizer but now I know how to get past it if necessary.
The central locking works fine with key and remote.

Ta,

Neville.
 

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"Dwight's Rule - It's the ground"

"Dwight's Rule - It's the ground" Or really the lack thereof that is usually the most common electrical problem in our Italian cars or any car for that matter when something won't work.

Dwight is known far and wide in our Fiat community as one savvy dude and for his wit and sense of dry humor.

He is also co-founder of Fiat Lancia Unlimited aka FLU.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
"Dwight's Rule - It's the ground"
I agree with Dwight - I believe I have a major ground issue which still eludes me.....

Today I spent several quality hours beneath the Live Oaks scrutinizing all the ground connections and can find no fault.

During rebuild I made a point of cleaning all ground connections, as well as any connection that came into the picture.

The engine starts fine but runs rough probably due to the prevailing ground issue.

The alternator is not charging (battery light is on) - I have verified the alternator is OK and properly connected.
The voltmeter is static at 12v which is where it stays from when the ignition key is initially turned on.

There is no power to the fuel pump unless I jump the pink/pink and white pins at S12A relay, which is how I get it all to start in the first place.
Fuel pressure is 38psi as prescribed - even had to re-tighten some hose clamps due to leaks under good pressure.

The gray/black cable to the ECU is live when the S12A relay is connected.

All fuses are pulled except those essential to starting the engine.

How does one trace a bad ground?

Ta,

Neville.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Folks,

At some stage during a rebuild/merger we have to dive deep into the CAR DISC, ALFABB, ALFA Digest and wherever to study carefully the specifications in order to overcome the issues that arise.
I think I have finally mastered the 164 electrical challenge.

My problem is that I attack with a limited few hours each weekend taking shortcuts and fast tracking as far as I can...........this often leads to frustration.

Finally this merged/rebuilt Alfa started third turn, idled almost smooth and then drove from beneath the Live Oaks to join the other two 164's on the garage driveway area.
Jenny has since started first time on several occasions and idled up to normal temperature.

She (Jenny) resided about four years beneath pines at the edge of Jennings State Forest in a trailer park, and then three years beneath our Live Oaks.

Now she is alive and running.

The earlier problematic immobilizer works fine and all that is
now is the auto trans cut-out because it is now manual trans.

The fun will continue with attention turned towards minor tuning, interior and cosmetic body stuff.

Then all we need are new tires and wheel alignment for the first test on I95.....

Ta,

Neville.
 

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That is good news Neville!
 

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Well done Neville,
Persistence pays off doesn't it... Did you find the bad ground or otherwise get to the bottom of the rough idling?

That wire loop red jumper plug for auto/manual transmission isn't too important as it merely reduces the low-end torque slightly (by modifying ignition timing I think) when in Auto mode (jumpered for Auto, I believe) to preserve the transmission. Someone might have removed the jumper from your Auto 164 previously, for more 'kick'.

-Alex
 
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