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Discussion Starter #1
I've just seen the info about this car that's entered in the London auction soon.
Does Coys story about it seem right?
They say it's the ex Trossi car as listed in Anselmi and later fitted with a genuine body from a 256/SS.
Details at:
Coys
 

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Coys description can be found here.

I don't know and cannot comment on whether the story is correct. If I recall correctly, the Mr Tognazzo mentioned used to own a salvage yard in the city of Zurich (where the Sihl and Limmat rivers come together) that was dissolved after his death in the 1980s. Interesting that they don't say what condition the car was in then (i.e. a driver or a heap of scrap) and who restored the car.
 

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6c 2500

I've just seen the info about this car that's entered in the London auction soon.
Does Coys story about it seem right?
They say it's the ex Trossi car as listed in Anselmi and later fitted with a genuine body from a 256/SS.
Details at:
Coys
Hello Members,

The book 'Alfa Romeo 6C 2500' by Angelo Tito Anselmi (published in 1993 by Editorale Domus) states that 915.041 is a Tipo Sport with engine 923.812 and a Berlinetta body by Touring, dated on the 6th of june 1939. Names mentioned are Carlo Felice Trossi, Gaglianico (VC).

Ciao, Olaf Roeten
 

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Trossi owned the car, but I believe the motor has been "upgraded" from a single carb "sport" to a triple car "super sport"

I believe that the body is a modern replica, in the style of at least 2 of the 19 real Tipo 256 cars that were built.....the figure of 19 T256 cars built comes from Fabio Calligaris
 

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Discussion Starter #5
From Coys website:
"A copy of the estratto cronologico, issued by the Reale Automobile Club d'Italia, sheet number 12098, confirms Count Trossi of Gaglianico as the first owner of chassis 915041 at a price of 79,500 Italian Lire. A later, post-war estratto cronologico, issued by the Bologna office of the Reale Automobile Club d'Italia, confirms that this very car was sold to Luigi (Gigi) Platé on 11th October 1946. Gigi Platé was a very successful racing driver, and it is believed that he used chassis 915041 for various local events, competing against such legends as Franco Cortese, who competed a record 14 times in the Mille Miglia. One of Platé's successes was a respectable 4th in the over 1,100 cc class at the 1946 Circuito di Luino race, which was won by Cortese in his Lancia Astura.

By the 1950s the car was in regular road use with a new Swiss owner, a certain Mr Heinrich Saredi of KŸssnacht am Rigi, at the wheel. It changed hands again, passing to Mr Alois Peyer of the same town; both owners are documented in an official statement from the Swiss Generalstab. The car remained in Switzerland until the 1980s, when it was owned by a Mr Tognazzo and also a Mr Meyer. The restoration of the car began at the start of the 1990s. As the car's original body had been lost by the late 1950s, the restoration was completed with the re-clothing of the rebuilt chassis using an original Touring body from another 6C, a Tipo 256 Corsa Spyder. This body was located in South America, having been removed and saved when the Tipo 256 was re-bodied in the early post-war years. Copies of photographs when the body arrived from South America are on file, and additional louvres cut into the front can still be seen on the car today. The body was carefully restored before being fitted in 1999 and the result of this search for authenticity is a car which, as well as having all correct major chassis components, also carries the original Touring body of a sister car.

Following this amazingly painstaking rebuild the car stunned spectators when it made its post-restoration debut on the 2000 Mille Miglia retrospective. The original Touring lines, being amongst the most stylish of pre-war designs, still generate a reaction with their flowing style and aerodynamic references. This important pre-war Alfa Romeo is mentioned in the authoritative book on the subject, Alfa Romeo 2500 6C by Angelo Tito Anselmi.

Finished in a dark shade of racing red with a light tan leather interior, this car offers stunning levels of both style and performance for a pre-war design and would be very suitable for another running of the Mille Miglia as well as many prestigious events around the world. Offered with current, British-issued FIA papers and various documentation."

It would be amazing if this car really had an original 256 body as stated above. Does anyone know about this?
 

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From Coys website:
"A copy of the estratto cronologico, issued by the Reale Automobile Club d'Italia, sheet number 12098, confirms Count Trossi of Gaglianico as the first owner of chassis 915041 at a price of 79,500 Italian Lire. A later, post-war estratto cronologico, issued by the Bologna office of the Reale Automobile Club d'Italia, confirms that this very car was sold to Luigi (Gigi) Platé on 11th October 1946. Gigi Platé was a very successful racing driver, and it is believed that he used chassis 915041 for various local events, competing against such legends as Franco Cortese, who competed a record 14 times in the Mille Miglia. One of Platé's successes was a respectable 4th in the over 1,100 cc class at the 1946 Circuito di Luino race, which was won by Cortese in his Lancia Astura.

By the 1950s the car was in regular road use with a new Swiss owner, a certain Mr Heinrich Saredi of KŸssnacht am Rigi, at the wheel. It changed hands again, passing to Mr Alois Peyer of the same town; both owners are documented in an official statement from the Swiss Generalstab. The car remained in Switzerland until the 1980s, when it was owned by a Mr Tognazzo and also a Mr Meyer. The restoration of the car began at the start of the 1990s. As the car's original body had been lost by the late 1950s, the restoration was completed with the re-clothing of the rebuilt chassis using an original Touring body from another 6C, a Tipo 256 Corsa Spyder. This body was located in South America, having been removed and saved when the Tipo 256 was re-bodied in the early post-war years. Copies of photographs when the body arrived from South America are on file, and additional louvres cut into the front can still be seen on the car today. The body was carefully restored before being fitted in 1999 and the result of this search for authenticity is a car which, as well as having all correct major chassis components, also carries the original Touring body of a sister car.

Following this amazingly painstaking rebuild the car stunned spectators when it made its post-restoration debut on the 2000 Mille Miglia retrospective. The original Touring lines, being amongst the most stylish of pre-war designs, still generate a reaction with their flowing style and aerodynamic references. This important pre-war Alfa Romeo is mentioned in the authoritative book on the subject, Alfa Romeo 2500 6C by Angelo Tito Anselmi.

Finished in a dark shade of racing red with a light tan leather interior, this car offers stunning levels of both style and performance for a pre-war design and would be very suitable for another running of the Mille Miglia as well as many prestigious events around the world. Offered with current, British-issued FIA papers and various documentation."

It would be amazing if this car really had an original 256 body as stated above. Does anyone know about this?

I just sent this to Coys:

Gentlemen:



I believe that the ex-Trossi 6c2500 that you have for sale is not exactly what it is represented to be on your website.



The car IS ex Trossi, but was built as a single carb "sport" with a different body than what is on it now.



I find it very difficult to believe that the body on it now is from one of the only 19 Tipo T256 cars in a total of something like 6 different coachwork styles, (including to Ala Spessas) that were ever built, and that the coachwork is, in fact, a modern replica of one of the body styles used on two of the real T256s. I would love to see docaumentation that it is, in fact, a body off one of the real T256s.



Also, the car as it exists today has a 3 carb motor (as on the pre-war T256s and the Tipo SS cars), and it was built as a sport, with a single carb motor. I'm not even sure that the motor currently in the car is a pre-war motor. It could easily be from a post-war Tipo SS 3 carb car. If you give me the motor S/N I can tell you what it is, for fact.



In spite of the questioning I have about this car, I am sure you are aware that the car of Gene Ponder, which was sold as a real 6c2300B MM with period rather than modern coachwork, and in fact had a replica chassis that was built in Argentina and not a real 6c2300 chassis, was in fact not much more than a modern "recreation", using many period parts, and went for almost 1 million dollars!



I would like to see "your" car represented as exactly what it is, rather than presented with any information that might be misleading to potential buyers.



Thank You,

Dott.Ing.Stuart Schaller
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I look forward to their reply too!
The blurb does mention that they have photos of the original body, but that doesn't of course mean that this is the body in the photos.
I hope to get down there and see it in the flesh.
Nother point about the triple carb conversion is that it is something that many would have fitted to a car like this even in the early post war period and it isn't at all out of place
 

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Conversion of the carbs and compression ratio's

I look forward to their reply too!
The blurb does mention that they have photos of the original body, but that doesn't of course mean that this is the body in the photos.
I hope to get down there and see it in the flesh.
Nother point about the triple carb conversion is that it is something that many would have fitted to a car like this even in the early post war period and it isn't at all out of place
Hi 6ccorsa and other members,

I would agree that a carb conversion is something that could have been done in the early post war years. Didn't we do the same with early Giulia's (from one carb to two carbs)?

Angelo Tito Anselmi states in his book 'Alfa Romeo 6C 2500' on page 30 that the compression ratio's of the Sport and Super Sport engines are different too. These are the figures:

Berlinetta Sport 1939: 7,5 : 1
Berlinetta Super Sport 1939: 8,0 : 1

And to be complete:

Limousine Turismo 1939: 7,0 : 1
Berlina Tourismo 1939: 7,0 : 1
Torpedo Coloniale 1941: 7,0 : 1

Berlina Sport 1947: 7,0 : 1 (Freccia d' Oro)
Coupe Super Sport 1947: 7,5 : 1
Limousine Tourismo 1949: 7,0 : 1
Berlina Sport 1950: 7,3 : 1 (Freccia d' Oro)
Coupe Gran Turismo 1951: 7,5 : 1

So changing the carbs on an original engine doesn't make the car a Super Sport yet. Any additions, suggestions and comments on that?

Ciao, Olaf
 

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Hi 6ccorsa and other members,

I would agree that a carb conversion is something that could have been done in the early post war years. Didn't we do the same with early Giulia's (from one carb to two carbs)?

Angelo Tito Anselmi states in his book 'Alfa Romeo 6C 2500' on page 30 that the compression ratio's of the Sport and Super Sport engines are different too. These are the figures:

Berlinetta Sport 1939: 7,5 : 1
Berlinetta Super Sport 1939: 8,0 : 1

And to be complete:

Limousine Turismo 1939: 7,0 : 1
Berlina Tourismo 1939: 7,0 : 1
Torpedo Coloniale 1941: 7,0 : 1

Berlina Sport 1947: 7,0 : 1 (Freccia d' Oro)
Coupe Super Sport 1947: 7,5 : 1
Limousine Tourismo 1949: 7,0 : 1
Berlina Sport 1950: 7,3 : 1 (Freccia d' Oro)
Coupe Gran Turismo 1951: 7,5 : 1

So changing the carbs on an original engine doesn't make the car a Super Sport yet. Any additions, suggestions and comments on that?

Ciao, Olaf
What I don't know is what is the difference between a pre-war Tipo SS motor and a Tipo 256 motor. I haven't found an answer, even from Callagaris.

Haven't heard back from Coys as yet...
 

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Discussion Starter #11
What I don't know is what is the difference between a pre-war Tipo SS motor and a Tipo 256 motor. I haven't found an answer, even from Callagaris.

I bet they're the same.

Haven't heard back from Coys as yet...
Well there's surprise! Please keep us posted...
 

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What I don't know is what is the difference between a pre-war Tipo SS motor and a Tipo 256 motor. I haven't found an answer, even from Callagaris.

Haven't heard back from Coys as yet...

I think there are differences between the Tipo 256 and pre-war 6c2500 motors; probably cams and compression ratio....
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
I went to see the car this afternoon.
First thing is that the engine is wrong and has a fake number on it.
It is a post war type block which I believe were first produced in about 1943.
The block has had the original number milled off and stamped with 'SS 923812' and has a Supersport engine plate rivetted on alongside. Anselmi has this as the correct number engine for the chassis number that's being used but it should be a 1939 Sport engine and of course should be the prewar type block. I have engine S 923911 (99 engines later) which is a prewar type block and also Sport not Super Sport.
The chassis number is clearly stamped on a very unblemished raised section of the front cross-member. This is not at all like the number stamped straight into the front cross-member of my 1940 6C2500 chassis (ie not on a raised section). I do not know if some were done like this. Can anyone else comment?
I have to say when I know that one substantial thing on a car has been faked it makes me wonder about everything else. It might be a converted post war chassis too, but it would need a careful look at the prewar style crossmembers to see if they look to be original to the rest of the chassis.
The front hydraulic dampers are later post war type as are the alloy borrani wheels, but that's not a crime.
I can't make any comment on the bodywork as to it's originality from what I could see.
Having said all this it is a very nicely built good looking car and should be fun to use.
I'll post some photos when I get time in the next few days.
 

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Good Grief!

Stu, You amaze me. Not always in a good way!

There is so much ignorance, innuendo and poorly researched commentary in your posting #6 that it is hard to even consider being a part of this thread.

To summarize, see title ...............
 

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Gentlemen,

This isn't edifying to see. Where I come from, dirty washing isn't laundered in public.

And it's irrelevant whether or not anyone researching the history of a car is a potential purchaser or not. If anything, people with serious money are rarely serious historians. Everyone and everything has its place.

Just my tuppence.
 

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Two tuppence.

Hi Alex,

...your personal message box is full, so ...

Your tuppence are noted and appreciated. I thought carefully before posting and I will leave it up a bit longer. ... now removed.

I have taken Stu to task in private a few times and he just will not learn that he's got some incorrect thinking locked in his head. I know it shouldn't be up to me to be one to try to help him fix it. I'm not the only one, mind you, as you'll find if you check a number of his postings and certain responses. But, if these are going to be meaningful discussions, they should not be distracted by too much garbage. And that is precisely what his earlier posting was. Unfortunately, any "damage" is perhaps done as the public was only copied on this forum and it probably can't be erased from the original recipient's server at this point.

Like you, I also believe that we should all be able to study something without having to own it or think seriously about owning it, but Stu risks burning bridges for all of us when he goes off on such a poorly researched Quixotic tirade. I have merely attempted to show him some of what his response is likely to trigger.

Best regards.

John de Boer
 

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Hi Alex,

...your personal message box is full, so ...

Your tuppence are noted and appreciated. I thought carefully before posting and I will leave it up a bit longer. Sorry about that!

I have taken Stu to task in private a few times and he just will not learn that he's got some incorrect thinking locked in his head. It shouldn't be up to me to be one to try to help him fix it. I'm not the only one, mind you, if you check a number of his postings and certain responses. But, if these are going to be meaningful discussions, they should not be distracted by too much garbage. And that is precisely what his earlier posting was. When he removes or modifies his text that is problematic, then I will remove my references that show his comments for what they are.

I also believe that we should all be able to study something without having to own it or think seriously about owning it, but Stu risks burning bridges for all of us when he goes off on such a poorly researched Quixotic tirade. I am merely attempting to show him some of what his response is likely to trigger.

Best regards.

John de Boer
John:
I understand exactly what you are saying, but if I don't present THEORIES, I get NO response to any questions I post!! I'm a "knowledge shark", throwing out bait; hopeing that someone who actually knows something will bite!! It doesn't bother me in the least that someone questions or even corrects inforrmation I have wrong or am guessing at without emperical evidence to back up what I tend to believe. This method worked for me for many years, when I was a professor. I learned a LOT by presenting "theories" If I offened anyone, I'm sorry...I'm just trying to learn what actually IS fact...
 

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"915041" has some Alfa Romeo parts at least

More than that I cannot say.

It would seem that there is a chance of readers coming to the confused conclusion that I am somehow defending the car bearing chassis "915041" that is being discussed here. That is not the case. Here is my response to an inquiry received this morning.

"I am not defending the car in any way. I think it is QUITE LIKELY an extreme historical misrepresentation. That doesn't make it "bad" in my mind, but it means there is not much specific that is likely to be learned from the car itself. We might be able to figure out (roughly) where some of the parts have come from. It is quite evident, from certain numbers already reported, that parts come from several different cars."

"I am objecting to Stu's ignorant attack upon it from afar without enough information to go on. In his Quixotic attack, he assumes a lot, communicates some mis-information and risks discrediting us all. He has done it many times before. Simple as that."



I have not inspected the car, and would not presume to be able to make any kind of real judgement without spending some intimate time with it. Raoul San Giorgi has had a look in the past and shared some of his observations in a Registro Internazionale Alfa Romeo 6C2500 newsletter a few years ago. Someone who would like to feel like they know something more without going and having a personal look at the car itself, could do worse than go through back issues of the RIAR6C2500 newsletter and dig up the reference. I made notes that are part of a confused jumble of information received about the car, made even more confused by Bill Noon's recollections passed on by Stu. It would seem that Bill's memory is off timing-wise or he is perhaps remembering a different car?

I might add that, if you are looking to learn something about the history, auction catalogues are perhaps not your best source of unbiased information? But, there sometimes are things to be learned and there is certainly lots of amusement to be had!

Best regards.

John de Boer
 

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6c

There must have been enough "real" aspects about the car to satisfy the new owner, who paid roughly $730,000.00 for the privilege! Although for that matter, the 8C "Evocazione" went for roughly $830,000.00. Go figure.

I applaud John's subtle approach to fact finding on these old cars. A bombastic, aggressive inquiry will only cause the current owners to clam up. I for one am perfectly happy to shut up and learn something, and be thankful that some of the knowledgeable contributors are generous enough to share their knowledge.
Alan
 

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Discussion Starter #20
There must have been enough "real" aspects about the car to satisfy the new owner, who paid roughly $730,000.00 for the privilege! Although for that matter, the 8C "Evocazione" went for roughly $830,000.00. Go figure.

I applaud John's subtle approach to fact finding on these old cars. A bombastic, aggressive inquiry will only cause the current owners to clam up. I for one am perfectly happy to shut up and learn something, and be thankful that some of the knowledgeable contributors are generous enough to share their knowledge.
Alan
I think one aspect that helped the price is the fact that the car has FIA papers and has done the Mille Miglia re-run and would be eligible again.
And all said and done it's a really nice car.
I do think however that the vendor & auctioneers are in a precarious position regarding their catalogue description. Not to mention the fact that the engine is definitely not the one it purports to be (as it's a post war type) seems rather foolhardy.
 
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