[gcast]

I’ve been torn between two 164’s.
Option one is a manual 91 L with the 12v engine and 180k miles. Doesn’t seem neglected but it definitely has some wear. The owner told me the car might need front shocks. He doesn’t know the last time the timing belt or water pump was done, so I’ll probably have to do that right away. $2400 for this car.

Option two is an auto 94 LS with the 24v. 140k miles. Seems to have less wear than the other one, no cracks in seats, paint is slightly faded, but still better than the other car. The owner claims it doesn’t need anything, and that he just brought it to an Alfa specialized mechanic for brakes and an inspection and they “didn’t recommend anything”. He has a few years of maintenance records, just from his 3 years with the car, but nothing from previous owners. The timing belt and water pump haven’t been done in the time this guy has owned the car, so they’re probably overdue.. But I’ve read that the 24v timing belt and water pump would be tough to do on my own, and I’d need special tools? So in that case I probably have to take it to a shop and pay $1k+ ? That’s the only thing that really worries me about this car. It’s $3200.

I don’t have a preference for auto or manual. Manual seems more fun, as this won’t be my daily. But if the auto is a better car, I wouldn’t be disappointed. I don’t really care about the power differences between the two engines either, I’m more interested in which one should give me the least amount of trouble- I’m assuming the 12v, but the 24v does seem to be a better car overall, which is why I’m stumped.

 

[IRONBLOCK]

This is a difficult question for various reasons. Since I've only had my '92 164-S since it was brand new, I am a bit biased. How can it be 30 years already? However I did have a '91 164L automatic for a few years as well, so I can appreciate both cars you are considering. Honestly the quick answer is that the Toyota "will give you the least amount of trouble". The 94LS does sound like a better example, in general and the power consumed by the automatic transmission will be more then made up for by the four cam engine -which may be a bit more problematic, due to cam belt issues. The automatic may also be more problematic due to the complexity but I really liked the auto in my 'L' -well as far as automatics go. I'll take a manual shift almost everyday if traffic is not grid locked on the interstate.

Neither car will be cheap to maintain -especially if you are paying a shop to do the work. Do you have a good 164 mechanic near you that is willing to work on these cars? If so I would strongly recommend that you take the car, you prefer, in for a pre purchase inspection. These are some greatest cars that I have ever owned but they are pretty demanding for service and repairs and do not take deferred maintenance very well. If money is not an issue, I'd encourage you to find a nice 'S' model or Quadrifoglio. They are available, with a few needs, in the 5-10K range. That buys a lot of car for the money. I believe the MSRP on the '92 "S" was about 28K in the day -who knows if we'll ever see a 164 bring that much again?

Main issues: (I am sure others can add to this list)
Timing belt -should to be changed regularly (for me each 6 years or so but probably only 30,000 miles -usually less).
Power steering rack -they are prone to leak with age/mileage (Lucas Power Steering Stop Leak is great for small leaks
Clutch -my throw out bearing failed at 135,000 miles; the clutch face still looked great
Radiator -they are getting old and may need to be replaced, due to internal build up
A/C -I've had two compressors and it is out now...Stepper motors can be an issue too

I just remembered that there is a 164 buyers guide on here somewhere; you can search for it above or someone will post a link for you. Either way, I hope this helps. Here is a helpful link regarding prices:

Alfa Romeo 164 - CLASSIC.COM

Find Alfa Romeo 164 for sale at classic car auctions - including prices, comps, alerts and more.

www.classic.com

Mark

 

[gcast]

I usually do a lot of my own work, but not everything. I figured both cars could give me a decent amount of trouble, I’m just wondering if the 24v is actually harder to work on and more expensive to work on compared to the 12v.

There are quite a few Alfa specialty mechanic shops around me, so I don’t think I’d have trouble finding someone to work on them, I’d just rather save the money and do stuff myself if I can. But in terms of pre purchase inspections, I don’t really know of any shops in the areas that these two cars are located.

I would absolutely consider an S or Quadrifoglio, but I genuinely can’t find any other 164s for sale in the country on Craigslist, eBay, etc. that could just be me not looking the right places, I don’t know. For budget I was hoping to keep it under $5k.

Thank you for the list of common issues, I’ll be sure to keep those in mind.

 

[ForzaRomeo]

Ive owned both a '91 S 5speed and a '94 LS auto and enjoyed both of them. Though its been almost 10 years since I have owned the LS, I do remember it feeling a bit different than the S. The LS felt like it had a bit more low end power and def. made a deeper growl while the S felt more high strung. Now I dont know if those feelings were just necessarily the motor or also a difference in the characteristics of the 5speed vs auto. I will say that the LS felt much heavier and more like a luxury car than the S. The S felt more nimble and sporty that could be tossed around a bit more. Working in either engine bay can be a PIA because of the size of the motor and everything is so tightly compact.

 

[IRONBLOCK]

Sorry, I've never worked on one of the 24 valve cars but from my other four cam engines, I know that they can be more difficult...I like autotempest.com but only saw 3 -164's listed -two near your price range but I don't think that I could recommend either.

This months Alfa Owner (National club magazine) has a 1994 164LS with 85K, 5 speed, Champagne w/ Tan leather. No rust, clean Mn title, collector plates, recent timing belt, serpentine belt, water pump, new tires & battery. Runs fine, minor dents & a scratch on the hood. Interior door panel has a crack. Asking 5K, contact David [email protected]

Not my favorite color but all the other boxes seem to be checked off pretty well...I have no relation or financial interest, just trying to be helpful. Also, would not buy a car sight unseen, unless it was for pocket change.

Mark

 

[gcast]

Thanks for all the help guys! It gives me a bit to think about. I’ll be sure to email David about that 164LS. I wouldn’t buy sight unseen either, but we’ll see what comes of it.

 

[Del]

I've owned and driven both. Both were fun to drive, the 91S (not an L, though, and the LS a manual) came across as better around town and the LS a better highway car, basically because of the difference in engines, IMO.

In comparison to the basic V12 164, the LS is more complicated, esp the engine. Loved that 24V engine but UNLESS you know someone who is familiar with the 24V engine, or if you are an accomplished toolie such as Alfisto Steve, or "goats" (who owned a couple of auto LS and easily knew enough to do tasks such as changing the timing belt, etc), I might recommend staying away from it in terms of maintenance. Also, make sure the center dash hvac display functions properly. They had problems and goats was able to repair them for customers. The 164 clutches can last forever, just changed the original one in the 91S at ~186k miles. If you feel confident about proper maintenance for the 24V engine, then I might recommend the one mentioned above for ~$5k. This is a Midwest car, so make sure that it is true there is no rust. The suspension on these cars can take a beating with rust if exposed to much salt, from what I've seen in photos.

I altered mine just a little, with the Q intake, 16 inch wheels and tires (the right size for all around handling and road feel IMO), aftermarket stabilizer bars, S springs, and Koni shocks (cranked up to match the "sport" setting of my 91S). Had also installed a set of 91S seats. Better for driving than the LS seats. Also had the Bosch headlights. These changes transformed the car into a stormer. Super fun, esp on the highway. Great GT, took it on long runs to places such as El Paso and back to Seattle. Hated selling it, but the time had come, having come across a really great deal on a different performance car, plus the fact that my mechanic of 55 years passed away of the covid virus, shop closed.

On the other hand, the 91S has been a great DD, now with 198k miles on it, the drive train having not been touched except for required maintenance and replacement of clutch. The 164 engines and transmissions are incredibly durable if not totally abused with drag race driving. Mine has very good oil pressure and smooth transmission yet. Decided to keep it, with a complete rebuild of brakes, steering, and suspension.

Good luck with your choice.

 

[goats]

tough choice. I;ve had both 95 LS manual and 95LS auto (a few!). I loved both cars, the auto car was super easy to drive on SoCal freeways, not rowing back and forth. Plenty fast too. The manual car was a screamer for sure. Both of these had Q runners, squadra chips, etc. I had the full toolset for timing belt and a handful of other 164 tools as well -- The auto car spun the trans at 235K well earned miles! The manual car I ended up pretty much giving away to a friend after a wrist pin clip was found in the sump, and the liner wall showed scraping of the now-exposed wrist pin. Good news is he fixed it and now enjoys driving it around.

Good luck with your choice!

 

[richardbradford]

Defo a tricky one. Personally I'd never buy an auto but if that doesn't bother you the choice is open.
Series 2 cars were better protected against rust and the 24v engine is amazing. Yes, timing belt changes are a bit trickier but easy enough once you know how. You can do it without special tools or even camlocks, assuming the timing is currently good and you can just mark the pulleys before taking the existing belt off. Think you're looking at a similar price for cambelt changes on either car and both will need to be done - straight away would be my choice.
12v manual gearboxes used to fail on the input bearing, re-inforced in the 24v manuals. No idea about the autos - guessing they are less likely to lunch their differentials than heavily booted 24v manuals.
If the 24v has climate control, the LCD display can lose segments - fixable with a new LCD ribbon, though a bit of a specialised job. The series 2 cars have more reliable stepper gears - metal rather than plastic like the series 1 cars.
Not sure about the difference in parts availability in the US - sure others can comment on that and places like Alfissimo.com still stock a fair number of parts.
140,000 miles isn't much on one of these engines. Both 12v and 24v are really reliable, if well looked after. I think the valves on the 12v can need adjusting, while on the 24v it is done automatically. Sure others know more about this?
Check for rust underneath on both cars. The protective underseal tends to age, peel a little then start trapping water. What about the rear subframe? If one is rotten forget it. Difficult to repair and almost impossible to find.
24v has better front brakes and a whole host of other tweaks, as you'd expect from a newer version. If both were manual I'd have no doubt about opting for the 24v. While I love the 12v and think it has even better throttle response, the 24v car is superior in every measurable way. Larger wheels too - 16" as standard rather than 15". And my 24v manual steering rack is original - 26 years old, 150,000 miles on the clock, with no signs of any leakage.
That's all just my 2 cents worth. Good luck with it your purchase, which ever you decide.

 

[Del]

Most 12V 164s either had that bad bearing replaced, was an S version with it already, or the later ones came with it.

Did have problems with the steering rack in my LS, starting to leak, replaced by a rebuild which failed in a couple of years, leaks again, finally replaced by a NOS 164S rack found in Italy. My opinion is that all 164 racks, period, built by TRW?, are just not all that good. Almost all have failed with leaks at one time or another.

BTW, just adding the Q intake runners basically changes an LS engine into the Q engine. Seems that's all they did to make the Q into the LS, just squeeze down the intake. And, of course, change the gearbox ratios a little. The Q gearbox does enable the driver to perhaps make better use of the higher revving of the 24V engine. That engine is just a wonder at full song, and very responsive. I do miss it, but the S engine is almost as good.

 

[gcast]

I definitely think the $5k 194LS 5-speed from Minnesota would be my top choice, assuming it has minimal rust. I emailed him and haven’t heard back yet though.

I’m glad the engines and transmissions can last a long time on these cars though. The only issue is that the two I was looking at in my area are pretty much complete mysteries in terms of maintenance. I guess maybe I should expect so spend a couple thousand extra on whatever I end up with or is that a little excessive?

 

[Del]

Depending on the condition of the car, yes, you could easily at least spend several thousand more. However, there are a few very good ones out there which need little or even nothing. Too bad you didn't start looking a year or so ago when I was selling my LS, as it needed absolutely nothing for a good ride. Even the paint was original and in good condition.

 

[Johnalfa]

Timing belt alone on a 24V can run upwards of $2000. AMHIK.

 

[richardbradford]

Most 12V 164s either had that bad bearing replaced, was an S version with it already, or the later ones came with it.

Did have problems with the steering rack in my LS, starting to leak, replaced by a rebuild which failed in a couple of years, leaks again, finally replaced by a NOS 164S rack found in Italy. My opinion is that all 164 racks, period, built by TRW?, are just not all that good. Almost all have failed with leaks at one time or another.

BTW, just adding the Q intake runners basically changes an LS engine into the Q engine. Seems that's all they did to make the Q into the LS, just squeeze down the intake. And, of course, change the gearbox ratios a little. The Q gearbox does enable the driver to perhaps make better use of the higher revving of the 24V engine. That engine is just a wonder at full song, and very responsive. I do miss it, but the S engine is almost as good.

In Europe, the LS and Q gearboxes are identical. The only single powertrain difference between them is the inlet runner size. Might even allow for better fuel economy due to better breathing - or am I just being hoepful... ;-)

 

[richardbradford]

Timing belt alone on a 24V can run upwards of $2000. AMHIK.

Why so expensive? Even an Alfa dealer in the UK charges no more than £800 for a 24v. The 12v needs almost the same amount of labour and timing belt parts are not massively cheaper, are they?

 

[goats]

It’s not hard to need $700 in parts not counting the tensioner on a 24v - two idlers, tensioner, belt, two serp idlers, serp belt , cam seals—

 

[Del]

If one has all that replaced. Carlo used to just laugh, saying "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". With the last belt change in my LS, everything was smooth and clean. So, nothing changed except the belt.

But yes, all that stuff can add up.

He had no failed tensioners unless they were rusted, rare in his opinion. He had lots of used ones from Ferraris (those guys always said to replace it, money no object) which were tested to still be good. Gave me one.

 

[gcast]

Those prices are definitely kind of worrying. But I guess it’s an Italian car so it’s not going to be cheap.

The guy selling the 91 L manual I was looking at is now willing to sell for $2k. But there’s no maintenance records or anything and he doesn’t know how old the timing belt is or if the clutch is still original. Also faded paint on the hood and cracked worn leather seats inside, and he said it could use front shocks. What do you guys think? I feel like after everything’s fixed up I’d find that it would’ve been better to spend that money on a nicer example up front.

Not sure, though, because I don’t need my cars to be perfect show quality cars, just running well.

 

[Del]

Pass IMO. If the guy had service records, etc, maybe then you could judge, but since he doesn't know anything about the car...

I know of a decent 91S in this area with many many extras. It's much higher miles, but it looks fine and should be good yet. My 91S certainly is with it's mileage of 198k. Some of the extras included with this particular 91S, such as a set of Konis for a 164 (~$900?), could be sold to cover service charges, etc. You wouldn't need them, since the S shocks are very very good, and can be rebuilt.

However, having said that, the LS does sound like a pretty good and better 164, IF the guy comes back with service records and especially good photos of everything. And providing the paint is ok, seats are uncracked, still sewn well, etc, and the dash hvac display still works. Bad seats are totally expensive to fix. Buying a used set is what most do. When I sold my LS, I provided a ton of pictures and a wad of service records from probably the most reputable/knowledgable mechanic in the area. Nothing covered up at all, as far as I know, lol.

 

[pinino]

What year is the L? It may help trying to determine if it has that weak input bearing. My first Alfa was a B (loved it) and with only 80K that bearing was beginning to howl in 1st. No one has mentioned it yet but the long-legged gearing of the B/L is rather nice. It took me a long time to adjust to shorter gearing of the S.

For your first 164 I'd recommend avoiding a 24v. A 12v is sooo much easier to maintain and afford.

BTW I have a set of fabric seats for a B that look like new, might be a nice way to freshen up those cracked leather ones. Fabric seats are much much comfortable in cold climates.