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Discussion Starter #1
Hello guys, I am a repair shop doing a mechanical restoration on a friends 1988 Alfa Romeo Spider, I have came across problems that other shops ignored and rigged to work, it started out with a lower clutch pedal and every now and then a grind downshifting, I had to replace the brake master and booster therefore having to remove the clutch master from the booster and found that someone installed a new clutch, master and slave and they adjusted the master to only 1 thread so it pulled out upon removal. I did the repair and found that after that it shifted very poor with grinding alot and low pedal and not full travel of the fork so I researched and found to test the clutch pedal pivot pin which was bad and is getting replaced now.

My question is that I noticed on the clutch fork external side where the slave ball goes to the fork there is a cup that is mounted to the fork through the fork ball hole, this cup seats the slave ball inside it, what I found is this metal cup is rotted and damaged thus needing replacement but what I keep finding in pictures and forums and parts that this part does not seem to go on this setup, so my question is does the slave ball go directly into the fork or should this cup be mounted to the fork?

The cup looks like a half circle on one side where the slave ball sits inside of it and mounts to the fork with a stud and a 10mm nut if you loosen the nut the cup has adjustable angles.

Can anyone offer assistance in this problem on the fork cup please?

Thanks,
Joe
 

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The ball is on a stud that screws into the trans housing.
The fork just rests against the ball with a little hairpin shaped spring clip to hold it in place and the rubber boot covers it to keep a small dot of grease in and dirt out.
Ball socket is physically part of the clutch fork and the only way to replace it is to replace the whole fork.
(new is almost impossible to find, good used can be had here and there, starting with places like Alfa Parts Exchange)

Regarding the clutch master:
Look in the FAQ at the top of this subsection and you'll find a scematic showing the specific length that the yoke on the master is to be set at. Pay attention to where the reference points are as getting that wrong will throw things off by a pretty fair margin.
Like almost 1/8" if you don't compensate for the mount plate thickness and more than that if you don't measure the hole end correctly.

The closer you can get to that spec the better, but there is allowance for a turn or two in either direction to fine tune with.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
The ball is on a stud that screws into the trans housing.
The fork just rests against the ball with a little hairpin shaped spring clip to hold it in place and the rubber boot covers it to keep a small dot of grease in and dirt out.
Ball socket is physically part of the clutch fork and the only way to replace it is to replace the whole fork.
(new is almost impossible to find, good used can be had here and there, starting with places like Alfa Parts Exchange)

Regarding the clutch master:
Look in the FAQ at the top of this subsection and you'll find a scematic showing the specific length that the yoke on the master is to be set at. Pay attention to where the reference points are as getting that wrong will throw things off by a pretty fair margin.
Like almost 1/8" if you don't compensate for the mount plate thickness and more than that if you don't measure the hole end correctly.

The closer you can get to that spec the better, but there is allowance for a turn or two in either direction to fine tune with.

Thanks for the reply, I had already adjusted the master rod to correct spec, however I think you are referring to the clutch fork pivot pin?

What I am referring to is the part/socket on the fork where the slave cylinder ball on the end of the slave pushes on the fork, the hole in the fork where the slave ball would normally? sit instead has a cup that has been mounted to it, what I am trying to find out is did someone install this to give the clutch more throw or is this factory.

Again this is external trans on the fork where the ball on the end of the clutch slave would normally? sit right into the fork?

Thanks
 

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Hi Joe and welcome to the AlfaBB. Can you post a picture? Here's a screen shot that might be useful for further discussion.

clutch.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #6
In these pictures you can see that a "cup" if you will is attached to the fork cup hole thus extending clutch travel? Is this factory as I do not think it is, I think it was rigged to add travel.

th_94c63b00.jpg

th_550de8bc.jpg

th_33000df3.jpg

th_409279ef.jpg

th_fffce8bd.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I didn't think it was factory nor should be there after research however I wanted to check with people that knew for sure.....thanks!

It really wouldnt surprise me as like I stated they had adjusted the clutch master rod all the way out to one thread which is not safe to make up travel, I found the pedal pivot pin was bad and had not been touched then I found that cup on the fork which has me worried as right now the clutch works perfect however that cup has to be taking up about an extra 1/2" of travel I would say. My friend explained to me that the clutch, master and slave had been replaced but I have a feeling it never received a new clutch and I can see the slave has not been replaced to the best of my knowledge in the field, however the clutch master has been.

Its about witts end on this car, it has been a nightmare from other shops trying to repair it, left and right one problem after another I have had to repair. My friend is already $3k into the car parts only. I had to go to the shop he got stuck with it sitting at over a year and remove it from their possesion so correct work could be done on it.

I'm worried of internal clutch problems as everything else has not been bad for me for never working on one of these but removing the trans has me worried due to cost to him.

You name it and I bet ive just about replaced or repaired it.







I guess I will need to get the pedal pivot pin installed and remove that cup on the fork and then replace the slave hose and see from there how it reacts........
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I would like to thank each and every one of you for being on this forum, I can proudly say this site has greaty helped me in working on this alfa, If it where not for this site things may have not gone so easy as some have.

Thanks everyone!
 

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How many miles are on the car? I suspect that this all started because of second gear grinding and attempts were made to fix that by dancing around the problem when in reality the only real fix is to replace the 2nd gear syncro in the gearbox.
So to do it right we are talking pulling the box and a simple replacement of the 2nd gear syncro. There are many approaches to this from only replacing the seals and flipping/swapping syncos from 5th to 2nd to new sliding synco rings and new syncros. Might as well replace the clutch, plate, and T/O bearing. Hopefully the flywheel is ok.
Nice to see people trying to do the right thing, thanks!
 

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I have lived with a gear box that has close to 150k miles on it for four years and while it is a bit crunchy when cold, it remains serviceable with a gentle touch and the right lubricant. I think you have a good plan... see where you are after the pivot shaft replacement and returning the clutch fork to stock. Using Redline 75W90 NS or Shell Spirax GL-5 gear oil may make a substantial difference in shift quality if your friend needs to delay the "real fix" as described by gigem75 above.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
How many miles are on the car? I suspect that this all started because of second gear grinding and attempts were made to fix that by dancing around the problem when in reality the only real fix is to replace the 2nd gear syncro in the gearbox.
So to do it right we are talking pulling the box and a simple replacement of the 2nd gear syncro. There are many approaches to this from only replacing the seals and flipping/swapping syncos from 5th to 2nd to new sliding synco rings and new syncros. Might as well replace the clutch, plate, and T/O bearing. Hopefully the flywheel is ok.
Nice to see people trying to do the right thing, thanks!
79,000 miles but the speedo actual gauge is bad and no longer works.

If I cannot do it right then I will not do it at all, I do not like having customers pain when they find out the problem is due to a problem another shop rigged. To me theres only one way to do things and thats the right way the first time.

Just off topic but heres what I have done already:

1 outer tie rod

front and rear pads and rotors

rear calipers

brake lines

washer hose

both belts ( what a pita )

clean and lube seat belts

fuel filter, both fuel pumps, all fuel lines, sending unit, gas tank, vapor lines, fuel press reg....... everything but the injectors.
(btw the aftermarket style sending units are a horrible design to me to just leave the pump hanging from a hose)

rear sway bar and bushings

rear limiting straps ( good idea to use this car up north with steel bolts in aluminum blocks.....had to cut them off and drill the bolts out)

intake manifold plenum couplers (another pita)

therm and housing, upper rad hose

all vac lines and etc hoses

spark plugs

new valve cover as old one has stress/casting cracks causing leaking oil while running

oil catch can

both door lugs

tag light bracket

master cylinder and booster ( booster had just over a full quart of brake fluid in it)

wiring for vvt as fuse was corroided and had to replace fuse holder, wiring for both fuel pumps had been cut by other shop and completely gone.

vvt valve and plunger had to be cleaned and lubed due to no power it froze up causing slight pitting on the plunger allowing it to push in but not fully spring back out.

wiper linkage was frozing

clutch pedal pivot pin

clutch slave hose

install 2 speakers and repair wiring

horn occ turns on due to poor steering hub design( I think im going to grind down the one post it sits to close to thus temp changes allow contact with pin engauging the horn circuit.

I am sure there are some things im leaving out....... But not that everyone cares to hear about all this.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I have lived with a gear box that has close to 150k miles on it for four years and while it is a bit crunchy when cold, it remains serviceable with a gentle touch and the right lubricant. I think you have a good plan... see where you are after the pivot shaft replacement and returning the clutch fork to stock. Using Redline 75W90 NS or Shell Spirax GL-5 gear oil may make a substantial difference in shift quality if your friend needs to delay the "real fix" as described by gigem75 above.
After all he's been through on this car im not sure how much further he will go, he still needs to get the body work done which will be 3000-4000. I can do the paint work but not the actual body work this car needs. He stated he plans on selling it after the body work is completed.

Oh yeah, I still have to service the ac as well however I cannot as I have no exp with r-12 except conversions I have no r-12 equipment, however I tested and has bubbles showing its for now so far at least low on freon. I also had to repair the wiring on whatever that little switch (thermal switch?) is on the radiator shroud, I think its for the ac.

This poor guy, we moved out of state for a year and he was forced to ship the car to me or try another shop the easiest was to try another shop where the car sat for over a year and they stole my optima red top battery I bought for him they also did not fix anything instead took parts off the car and lost other parts and cut/hacked up wiring and put a huge dent in the side of his car!
 

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I have a few brand new clutch forks left, but I have no plans to visit my storage for another week. If you're not in a big hurry, send me a PM?

Alex.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I have a few brand new clutch forks left, but I have no plans to visit my storage for another week. If you're not in a big hurry, send me a PM?

Alex.
Thanks, And I'll let you know.

I still need to remove the cup to check the fork to see if it's bent or cracked, and still install the new pedal pivot pin to further diagnose the system, so at this point im not certain on what more I will need yet.
 

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One thing that nobody has mentioned is bleeding the clutch correctly whenever opening the system, before throwing more money at it. I bought my Quad from someone who had the car camped at a shop for 2 years after changing everything, but still had to grind it into gear, which made it not safe to drive. The mechanic seemed to think bleeding was simple and done correctly, so not the problem. After lengthy phone calls about the symptoms, I told him to stop work on the car, and I'll take it as is for chicken feed. I packed a little bag with a few basic tools, got a one way ticket to the bay area(500 miles away). I re-bled the clutch, got a few last bubbles out that weren't supposed to be there, and drove it safely home. The message here is, if you don't know what you're doing, you spend a lot of money and use a sledge hammer. If you do, you have a nice drive down the coast in a great car you got dirt cheap, and mechanics you just left behind who now hate you. Don't underestimate how important it is to check the obvious first. Worked for me! ;)
 

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..., and still install the new pedal pivot pin to further diagnose the system, so at this point im not certain on what more I will need yet.
On '82+ cars the clutch pivot pin is pressed into the bell housing. You don't replace the pin, you replace the whole bell. Unless it is so damaged that it will score up the fork or so worn that you can't get the clutch to disengage, grease it and forget about it.
 

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I empathize. Although, it sounds like the owner is attempting to correct years of neglect and deferred maintenance in a single effort. That is a very expensive approach, especially if there is no interest in keeping the car and at least getting some enjoyment out of it. A quick look and the car appears to be in pretty decent shape. Good luck.
 

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Quite obvious why the 'cup' was installed and the pushrod length changed; to try make up for lack of fork travel because of a failed pedal pivot. Problem was, all the cup did was push the slave piston further into the bore. It would not have increased travel at all. And lengthening the pushrod would only raise the pedal, not increase travel either.

Replace the pedal pivot, adjust master pushrod length to spec and beed with the bleed screw in the 12 o'clock position.

Done.

Oh, and the clutch pedal should be even with the brake pedal.
 
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