[Koenraad]

The support of the brake booster in the engine compartment is actually the one for the versions with hydraulic clutch low pedals.
A change of body?

Picture 22/65 still shows the two holes in the left (driver side) chassis beam for the hydraulic clutch cylinder...

 

[Koenraad]

I'm missing the rivet holes in the front and rear fenders for the "GTAm body kit" of picture 47 and 49...

Also missing... anchorage points - or the remaining scars - for the roll cage...

 

[Koenraad]

... Hydraulic clutch command on cars produced in 1969 (and the car in question is a 1969 model) already existed.

Yes, hydraulic clutches came with the introduction of the 1750 by the end of '67 but ONLY for the 1750-series.

All other Giulia's had to wait until Jan. 69 to receive hydraulic clutches.

Besides that, a hydraulic clutch adds weight so it has no sense on a GTA as these are all about weight saving...

This GTA is produced in october 1968 and should have a "cross over" air filter with the actual filter housing on the left side... the bracket for this filter house is also missing...
What's visible on this air filter spot are two little hooks for the water bag... which clearly indicates that this car has a post Jan. 1969 body!

This is the engine bay of GTA 1300 Junior AR 775 882 from 1968, notice the cross over air filter, the location of the blue water bag and the different brake booster bracket:

This AR 776131, one of last GTA Jr.'s built... it still has a cross over air filter (and a mechanical clutch). Notice also the different bracket(s) for the radiator:

 

[Koenraad]

@ARGTAReg, what is your relation to the seller or restorer of this car?

I see that your book is "lingering around" on the car... were you asked as a consultant or for your expert view during the restoration?

 

[Koenraad]

So 2 numbers as on the firewall plate?

Yes, first the type number 105.59 and then the IGM number 5786 (Italian homologation number).

Edit: I've seen other GTA Jr's without the actual IGM number next to it.

 

[Koenraad]

Koen, you may know this, but if not, the RHD GTA only had the Tipo number, 10504/A, on both fire wall plate and trunk/boot channel. The LHD GTA had both numbers.

No, I didn't knew that, thanks!
But it makes sense as RHD cars were never intended for the Italian market, so no Italian homologation number (which was given by the Italian government, not by Alfa Romeo).

 

[Koenraad]

You are too strict. For heaven's sake, I do not question any of the objections, which are generally correct, but using this criterion, the majority of cars (even yours!) would not pass the exam. Almost all GTA Js (even GTAs!) Intended for use today are restored using current criteria and with recently available and produced spare parts. If I'm not mistaken, someone in this forum has posted a useful guide on how to classify “reborn” historic cars. The GTA J in question, with all the defects listed, still remains an acceptable car, it depends on the price, I repeat.

The car for sale pretends to have a genuine racing history.

Main question is then, what do we understand under "a car with a racing history"? That history is linked to the physical parts that define a car, not to a certain VIN that can be transferred.

And that's what happened here, they simply transferred the VIN to a body (chassis, shell) that has probably never seen a race track in its life.

So, at best, this car is an incorrect replica of a GTA Junior with the extra bonus of getting the - I presume - real GTA Junior documents (car title) of VIN 775967, a car which happens to have a racing history.

The price of this car is defined by the value of the mechanical parts (engine, drivetrain, suspension,...), the value of the special aluminium body parts and some "GTA goodies" like the steering wheel, seats, etc.
The fact they used the wrong body as replacement will bring the price down, the GTA documents (car title) will probably rise the price... by how much has to be seen.

The person who buys this car can only turn the car into a correct replica but will never be able to turn this into the real GTA 775967 that once raced...

 

[Koenraad]

Where did you find my statement about hydraulic command clutch, as a serial part on GTA J?

You didn't make that claim, that's correct.

But your story about the hydraulic clutch doesn't explain why the bracket for the STANDARD air filter is missing and why there are two hooks (standard form and size, spot welded as in a production car) for the water bag installed on that specific location. That location happens to be the STANDARD location for the water bag on post Jan. '69 GT's (Veloce's and Juniors).

Be aware that the GTA Junior was built as a "homologation special" (1000 cars) and that only the mechanical clutch was FIA homologated in Jan. 1969 (FIA doc. n° 1557).
Later on, a hydraulic clutch was never added to the homologation... as stated before, this would only add more weight so it didn't make any sense to do it.

Plus, a hydraulic clutch would also imply that the header needed to be adapted...

Conclusion: your story about the hydraulic clutch makes no sense at all.

 

[Koenraad]

Also, with my admin hat on, please play nicely
Pete

Play nicely? Huh? What's wrong with my style (English)?

 

[Koenraad]

@ARGTAReg,

You need to read page 1 of the FIA Homologation document n° 1557, in order to compete in Group 2 in the 1969 season, AR had to build 1000 GTA 1300 Junior's between October 1967 and the end of 1968.

And ALL those 1000 cars had to comply with the technical requirements as written down in that FIA Homologation document.

So, even if the other AR GT's got modifications (like a hydraulic clutch, different air filter, etc.), AR was simply not allowed to integrate these modifications into the GTA Jr unless they applied for the homologation of each modification which they didn't.

Be aware that most of the GTA Juniors were built in 1968... on paper they built at least 1000 cars before the end of 1968. And certainly almost all race cars were built in 1968, Stradale's probably later...

Regarding the exhaust header... I was wrong, it's the other way around, a header for a mechanical clutch will fit on a car with a hydraulic clutch and standing pedals but in reverse you have to check the clearances.

Regarding "Appendix J for 1969, Title II, Series Production Touring Cars, Art. 257, Letter I"... that has nothing to do with the actual problem of the car that's for sale. The car for sale has simply a body without the racing history linked to VIN 775967.

 

[Koenraad]

1000 cars? By the Fusi book only 447 cars built. By Tabucchi - 167 from 1969 to 1975 without any numbers for 1968. How Alfa could start to built them from October 1967 if the production by Fusi started in early June of 1968.

1. I didn't say AR actually build 1000 cars, I said they had to built 1000 cars (if they played nicely with the FIA rules).
   Even if they only built 447 cars, all those 447 cars had to comply with FIA Homologation doc. 1557 and certainly if it was a race car.
   
   
2. Nor FIA nor me did say that AR had to start in October 1967, they were just allowed to start production. As long as they reached 1000 cars before 1969 it was OK.

I suspect the homologation sheet is not complete or another homologation exists for the cars with injection and other mods. Where are 4 valve head, double ignition narrow head, spica/lucas fuel injection and other parts? 1300 GTA has been used actively in competitions till 1977 with the most advanced Autodelta parts but they are not on the homologation sheets.

Maybe they were intended for the Group 5 racing class?
Or an evolution of Gr. 2... In the early '70's FIA had implemented new rules which they later on retracted, see also the history regarding the racing Alfetta's.

 

[Koenraad]

9/6V 02/01/1971 CLUTCH
...
11/8V 02/01/1974 CLUTCH, DRY SUMP

A "Culasse" is not a "Clutch" but a "cylinder head" (see also the translation of the first modification).

PS: None of the modifications were homologated in 1968... this should be at least 1969.
PS2: The 16v head - homologated in 1974 - doesn't show up in detail in FIA doc. 1557 although it is mentioned on the last page (probably because it was retracted by the FIA later on (FIA made a note: "Supprimée J76"), see also my previous message).

 

[Koenraad]

With the approval act 1557, Alfa Romeo did NOT homologate the racing car, but simply a VERSION of the model already in production (GT 1300 Junior, FIA homologation 5148, CSAI homologation 36). Why they did it is not the subject of this forum. All the cars were produced in a "road" version, and some were developed as a "racing" version during the production period, according to market demand. Appendix J of the FIA code, which regulated the mechanical condition of sports cars, was used (and respected) as the basis for permissible changes. Within these permitted changes, the hydraulically operated clutch was also allowed since it was supplied by the factory and already used on the basic version of the model (extension of homologation 5148/7/3E, and I do not repeat the quote from the article, but the one I mentioned in the previous post remains).

No, no, no... The GTA 1300 Junior (type 105.59) is a completely different car then the GT 1300 Junior (type 105.30)!

That's just the reason why they give it a different type number (105.59), engine number (559), Italian IGM number (5786) and FIA homologation number (1557).
The same applies for the Sprint GT vs Sprint GTA, Giulia Ti vs Giulia Ti Super, 1750 GTV vs 1750 GTAm... completely different cars, hence the different type, engine, IGM and FIA numbers.

FIA Appendix J, ed. 1969, Title IV (art. 257 - 260) applies to the "Touring cars" with limited production (min. 1000) of Group 2, being the racing class of the GTA 1300 Junior.
The modifications allowed are stated in art. 260. Transmissions are listed under letter 'k'. Is your statement that one can change the mechanical clutch for a hydraulic one, based on this rule?

​

Letter 'k' says:​

"The replacement of a manually [foot] controlled clutch by an automatic one [command] Is authorized, whatever Its operating system may be."​

In my eyes, you are allowed to change the way the clutch is operated but not the type of clutch itself. In other words, all changes to the clutch pedal are allowed (the French text is more clear on this issue) but the final link to the clutch itself must remain mechanical as original (in the case of the GTA Jr.).​

Furthermore, Group 2 cars may also be modified like Group 1 cars, but Title II, art. 253, letter 'f' doesn't speak about changes to the type of clutch, it only speaks about allowable gear ratio's and the possibility to use an automatic gearbox.

Suppose that a hydraulic clutch was allowed in 1969, why has this car then been rebuilt with a mechanical clutch?

 

[Koenraad]

For interpretations of Appendix J and the FIA code, perhaps it is better to accept as they are written. For cars of Group 2, (Turismo Speciale), anyone could use "part or system existing on the basic version and produced (or normally used) by the factory", as an integral part of their car intended for competition.

Where is that written? Appendix J? Which article?

 

[Koenraad]

What strikes me, is that there are no pictures of the car just before restoration took off...

Pictures of a GTA in the "as found" condition are the most important ones as these can prove the racing history of a car.

 

[Koenraad]

It is from the Manual for the technical control of Group 2 racing cars (fiches).

Oh dear...

You are referencing a document about Historic motorsport and Historic Touring Pasports (HTP). That is about racing today with historic cars. FIA has setup specific rules for that, see "Appendix K". The Italian documents you are referring are (or should be) based on Appendix K.

A GTA 1300 Junior that wants to participate in a FIA event has to comply with the original homologation form (1557), Appendix J from the appropriate period and Appendix K (with its own appendices).

And by the way, a GTA 1300 Junior does not belong to period "E" or "F" but to "G1", "G2" and "H1".

But even today, you're not allowed to change or modify the type of clutch, so historic racing is not an answer for the clutch problem ;-)
See Regulations - Appendix K | FIA Historic Database

 

[Koenraad]

It is from the Manual for the technical control of Group 2 racing cars (fiches).
The sentence is from the "General Rules" and I translated it into English for you, then I also found the specific page.

Please provide us with an internet link to your original document (pdf file).

Even for period "E" and "F" cars, changing the type of clutch is NOT allowed by FIA.

 

[Koenraad]

Certainly down here in OZ, the Historic regulation is interpreted as you cannot change from say a wet clutch to a dry type, but certainly coil springs pressure plate changed for diaphragm type is allowed in conjunction with using original housing etc.

FIA appendix J allows you to change any spring for a harder or a softer one, but you must keep the attachment points.

National regulations might be less restrictive but those cars are not allowed to participate in international events.

 

[Koenraad]

It is from the Manual for the technical control of Group 2 racing cars (fiches).
The sentence is from the "General Rules" and I translated it into English for you, then I also found the specific page.

As aked before: Please provide us with an internet link to your original document (pdf file)...

I will give you a hand... this is what we can read on page 34/41 of this document: http://www.csai.aci.it/fileadmin/docNews/1____NS 14.pdf

Did you manipulate your screenshot to remove the word "non" ?

Please provide us with the original file as proof!

 

[Koenraad]

As aked before: Please provide us with an internet link to your original document (pdf file)...

I will give you a hand... this is what we can read on page 34/41 of this document: http://www.csai.aci.it/fileadmin/docNews/1____NS 14.pdf

View attachment 1719976


Did you manipulate your screenshot to remove the word "non" ?

Please provide us with the original file as proof!

Dear @ARGTAReg,
Any news on this one?