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When you think about it it would have been hard to come up with too many more bogus claims for a 6c than were made about this poor old Turismo : genuine GS?-of course old chap ;Mille Miglia history?- naturally ,Scuderia Ferrari to boot ; a Zagato car ?- that's what the badge says ;matching numbers ?- wherever you want them sir ,done by the same artiste who made the badge . Still, the turgid monologue on YouTube is now much more interesting .
 

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Experience with these beautiful Alfa's

Hmmm. I would have hoped to learn SOMETHING (anything) about this car from someone, somewhere over the last two weeks. No posting, no PM, no phone calls, nothing in the mail box. Nothing that I haven't catalyzed. Can it be that I've already talked to those who might know something? Can it be that nobody has anything to add? Or is it that there are just twelve(?) of us who frequent the history section of the Alfa BB? Or is it that everyone lost interest when the car was sold and no longer became good gossip material?
Hello John,

I would like to contribute but unfortunately have nothing to add to this thread. A couple of books on these beautiful Alfa's on my bookshelf and no close up 'in real life' experience with pre war Alfa Romeo's are the cause. The Alfa's we have in our club are mainly post-war. I loved the 'Interclassics - Topmobiel 100 years Alfa Romeo'-exhibition in the MECC in Maastricht in January. Have a look in this thread http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/picture-room/160919-interclassics-100-years-alfa-romeo.html for 6C's, 8C's, 12C's and so on. No chance to look under the bonnet at the chassisnumbers & enginenumbers though!

Ciao, Olaf
 

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Not only was there an 8513101 ...

... but there was an 8513102? At least, an engine surfaced some time ago with this number. I've not seen it myself but have no reason to doubt its origins. Once again, please do not believe that general compilations available to us tell the whole story. There are many anomalies from what has been presented as fairly comprehensive "fact".

John
 

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Additional information

Added to posting #15

More 1500cc cars than we might have thought! There probably are a few more remaining to be identified.

John
 

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"Gran Sport 1500" - An incomplete listing ...

... and not "cast in stone" by any means!

It seems time to do a revised listing of the 1500cc "Gran Sport" cars from the 4th and 5th Series. Additional research has revealed at least one additional 1500cc example not included in posting #15 above ... which will be revised.

Reminder: In Italy during the 1930's, 1500cc cars were normally taxed at "19 HP" and 1750cc cars were normally taxed at "21 HP". This gives us some bureaucratic "evidence" of the engine sizes that were declared as being in use. Not all of the evidence is 100% reliable. When we see a car that was taxed at "19HP" and confirm that it raced as a "1500", then we can feel fairly comfortable that this was the actual configuration of the car.

6C1500 “Gran Sport” (Most of the cars listed were probably 1500cc from the beginnings of their lives but sometimes our engine-size data begins sometime after the first sale and use.)

6C 8513011 ... sold 4 April 1930 to Giacomo Corelli
6C 8513012 … sold 5 April 1930 to Scuderia Ferrari
6C 8513013 ... a Scuderia Ferrari car for a short time beginning 15 April 1930

6C 8513014 ... sold 5 April 1930 by Pirola, taxed as a 1500cc car by 1933 when owned by Nino Farina
6C 8513015 ... sold 5 April 1930 to Pirola, taxed as a 1500cc car by 1932 and probably from new?
6C 8513016 ... sold 2 May 1930 by Pirola to Lurani as 1500cc, ran factory 1750cc engine at least once, became 1500cc testa fissa later on during Lurani's ownership and racing use.

6C 8513020 ... sold 2 April 1931 to Caniato, possible earlier use by Scuderia Ferrari. Believed to have been testa fissa from new or from very early on.

6C 8513026 ... some confusions due to an early engine swap with 8513027
6C 8513027 ... some confusions due to an early engine swap with 8513026
(Note: Both 8513026 and 8513027 are believed to have used 1500cc testa fissa engines early on.)

6C 8513031 ... Described as 1500cc by 1934. Circumstantial evidence exists for 1931 as well.
6C 8513036 ?? ... Described as "Tipo 1500" in PRA documents (1933 & 1952) but taxed as 1750cc
6C 8513051 ... sold 27 April 1931 to Clerici, taxed as 1500cc by 1936 and probably from new?
6C 8513097 ... a Scuderia Ferrari “testa fissa” car 1930 and 1931

6C10814312 … The engine was taxed 1948 at “19HP” when installed in an earlier chassis. This may have earlier 1500cc implications … and maybe not?
6C10814343 ?? … maybe 1500cc ??
6C10814385 … sold 21 July 1932 to Scuderia Ferrari
6C10814402 … has 1500cc racing usage history but unknown if the car was 1500cc from new.
6C10814404 … sold 28 June 1933 to Peduzzi … in testa fissa form.

As always, any corrections and new data are always sought.

John
 

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Alfa Romeo 6C 8513013

As noted above, 6C8513013 was another 1500cc "Gran Sport" ... which many continued to call "Super Sport" in those days.

It has been some time since I checked, but some time back I noticed that Alfaregister.net had many errors relating to the descriptions of Alfa Romeo 6C cars. As with any listing, please treat that kind of reference material as a beginning to a study rather than as the result of any specific in-depth study. When it comes down to it, I recommend this approach to any listing's presentation, including my own. There can be unintended implications from a listing that is interpreted with inadequate context. AlfaRegister.net has described a car numbered "8513013" that seems to be on Dutch plates? I know nothing about that car ... if it is identified correctly.

Last November I was invited to see another car claiming the chassis number "8513013" in Italy, just south of Milano. I cannot believe that it is the original car as none of the mechanical components I saw (and photographed) are numbered as we'd expect. I didn't see everything, but this observation includes the chassis ... which has inboard shock dampers rather than the outboard dampers of the 4th series and later. It also has a frame number that is considerably earlier than those used in fourth-series cars. There is compelling but not-yet-conclusive evidence that the car began life as 6C0211499.

The steering box appears as if it was originally a fourth-series racing part ... but was re-numbered and re-purposed (probably 1931 or 1932) for use in a fifth series car. This sort of thing is not "common" but has been seen a few times previously in other cars. There is what appears to be an original libretto for 8513013 (modified to report chassis and engine number 0211499) that accompanies the car.

The original 6C8513013 had some interesting owners and made some interesting history, not all of which is described completely. The original Italian paper trail ends in Italy (after more than 20 years of non-use) with a declaration that the car was taken by wartime troops during WWII. The last truly meaningful entry seems to be dated 1940 when the car was sold to a new owner.

Here are some photos from November. These show a bit of the general appearance, the front axle, the "frame" number stamped on the left front "longherone" (dumb-iron or frame-horn) and the rear axle housing.

John
 

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Alfa Romeo "6C8513013" or 6C0211499 or ... ???

Some additional photos show the steering box, the gear carrier in the rear end, the crankcase number for the engine and the transmission.

Before seeing the car, I saw the engine "6C0211499" and another similar transmission in another room on a shelf. Interestingly, the engine numbered "0211499" has a later style of supercharger mounting pad than the numbering implies for the time and may actually be based on a fourth-series (or later?) casting.
 

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