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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi All;

I recently had the good fortune to purchase SZ number 102. The car had been set up for rallying. It does have the correct type 120 engine, but to me it seems quite weak. The car is not nearly as lively as my Giulia spider veloce despite weighing 400 lb less.

I am thinking of building a 1600 for it as I understand this is a very simple bolt up engine swap since the deck height, etc. are the same between the two engines. I am not looking to race the car or put some sort of rip snorting twin spark in it. I just want a moderate boost in torque and power.

What do you think?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Ha! I meant HELPFUL advice. I should have been more specific :)

Seriously, though, what you are talking about is a loss of originality, which is an issue, but these cars were built for racing. Everything in them was subservient to performance, not originality. It also has 6 point belts, a fire suppression system and a roll bar which are non-original. Should I take those out too? the 1600 is still an alfa engine and looks almost exactly the same except for some detail on the head and the engine block stamping. Also, I wouldn't throw the old engine away. I could always put it back in to "be original"

The current engine is an original TYPE engine, but not an original engine. It was built for rallying, not racing and dynoed 84 hp at the wheels which is pretty true to stock with the stock engines putting out 100 at the crank. Problem is the car is significantly less lively than my giulia spider veloce which weighs almost 400 lb more. My options as i see them are to leave the car as is and have a vehicle that looks hot but is boring to drive (I know myself, and that is not going to happen), rebuild the 1300 to a higher spec and have a very peaky race type engine, or put in the 1600 with 140 crank horsepower, mild tune and very tractable torque curve.

thoughts?
 

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When your name is on the title, you can do anything you want..Alfas are meant to be DRIVEN, not mantle display pieces...
jus' thinkin'
Chuck
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
true that!

Just wondering if anyone had experience putting a 1600 in a giulietta. I think it is a fairly common swap.
 

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Yes it was, but if it lacks "Go" either something is wrong, or you need a better engine, transmission, rear axle builder.
Contact Mike Besic at Besic Motorsports in Glen Ellyn Illinois.
I sucessfully raced a '60 1300 101 Veloce Spider for YEARS as have many others. With slight trickery, the old 101 1300 Veloce is fast (but not quick) depending on driver skill. My opinion from my own experience.
 

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1600

A 1600 is not the same overall height as a 1300.
I am not sure a 1600 will clear the hood of an SZ.
I worked on an SZ2 about 2 years ago and hood to engine clearance was minimal.
A well built 1400CC engine will make a huge difference.
My guess is that the existing 1300 is not up to par.
 

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From driect observation of a friend's SZ: the underhood is very, very tight. On this particular car (since these were handmade cars there are usually significant clearance differences from car to car---especially when you start doing things like swapping engines), a 1600 fit but with the most minimal clearances you can imagine. Engines, even properly installed, do move around and, with this SZ, there was so little room I would have been reluctant to drive it on anything but the smoothest street. Based on this, I wouldn't change engines. Gordon and Hotlegs both have a lot of experience with these engines so I'd suggest you give their suggestions some careful thought. If this was my car, I'd build a full-tilt 1400 cc engine. If your are careful about how you choose components (cams, carbs, compression ratio, etc.), you'll have a stout little engine that's satisfyingly fast, especially if your car still has its close-ratio gearbox, yet still able to potter around in traffic without getting cranky.
 

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I don't have nearly as much experience as some of the others who have commented, but I vote for building a good 1300. (I haven't tried the 1400 cc conversion, but that sounds like a great idea too.) Of the four 1600s (three with twin webers, one with a single Solex) I have had, and the two 1300s (both with single Solexes), I preferred the 1300s. Something about the dimensions in the 1300 works great, making the engine rev more smoothly. Or maybe I just like square to over-square engines better. The 1600s all felt like they should do better. Also, I feel that Alfa didn't do enough to improve the breed by the time the 1600 came out, but the 1300 was the original spark of genius of Satta and his crew.

And to echo what Karen mentioned, the difference in height of the two engines is easily spotted. There is an extra half inch of additional front cover above the water pump in the 1600, while the top edge of the water pump in the 1300 is nearly at the same level as the cylinder head/front cover line. So anyone with Alfa knowledge will spot an impostor quickly.

Thank you for allowing us to enjoy your SZ vicariously!
 

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FWIW, I would suggest a 1500 cc conversion of the original block (or replacement block) along with some head work. My 750 veloce was dynoed (sp?) at 125 HP with this conversion. I think liners & pistons are available through Paul Spruell.

The advantage is that the appearance is totally stock.
 

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I would buy a Veloce 1300 engine and put a 1400 kit with better cams and a ported head. I have a 1961 Sprint Veloce with the same modifications and the engine runs much better than stock. I would remove the SZ and build another motor. The 1600 engine is taller than the 1300 and you need special engine mounts. You could modify a 1600 and put that in your car or use a 1750 engine or buy a 4C. You can never compete against new technology with an old car.
 

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Hi All,
Wild horses couldn't drag me away from the beautiful sound of a 1300cc going above 6000 revs? It's such a joy.
What about playing with another rear axle ratio ?
rgds,
Thierry
 

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I am not looking to race the car or put some sort of rip snorting twin spark in it. I just want a moderate boost in torque and power.

What do you think?
Not sure I´m getting the point, if you´re not going to race it, actively or otherwise, why bother ??? And as Gordon and others say, if the current setting is too dull, there must be something wrong with it....

Dennis
 

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I did have a 1600 in my SZ when I first rebuilt the car because the work involved in rebuilding the original 750 type 1300 appeared to be too much. It was a case of an easy 1600 build or a difficult 1300 one....I chose the former. However a coupe of years later I bit the bullet and rebuilt the original 750 engine with C&B 109 cams and 42 DCOEs (which are what the car raced with in Sweden). It flies and is a delight. BTW there was no problem in fitting the taller engine. At your chassis number the engine would have been a 101 type and there is so much that can be done to the later series to make them work. Please remember that these cars are not a point and squirt variety and power is a relative concept as you overtake whilst others are braking!!!!
 

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There are plenty of ways to go with a 1300 to make more torque and power. 1400 and 1500 kits, in the original block. Modern cams are a big improvement too on period Veloce cams in terms of driveability.
The 1600 is taller than the 1300. 1300 block is even with the top of the water pump; 1600 is maybe 1/2" taller. That wouldn't be the limiting factor though, I'm sure you can juggle motor mounts etc if a bit of drop is needed.
Andrew
 

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Dr. Mark, if I am not mistaken you own my old 390966 Giulia Spider Veloce, must be 20 years or so, ago. Don't be discouraged by an ill-performing 1300 as I had the original 750 in my old SZ and it would run circles around your Spider except maybe top end. I'd stick to the basics and have the engine checked out thoroughly by a good mechanic which would include all the engine diagnostics, including cams and cam settings and carburation. In your business, you diagnose before you remove the limb. The fact that it is not a 120 engine is strictly immaterial. Don't get lead into thinking that must be your issues. And you don't need a Veloce engine core to perform as one. Any good 101-1300 core is as good as another. It's what goes in them that makes the difference.

It's much easier to make right what you have than to throw the baby out with the bath water.

I remember #102 from Tom Humphrey.. I saw it at a convention and it was sort of a pig in performance as I recall so I am not surprised with your conclusions. Take a trip to your old stomping grounds Tennessee and get a ride in my old car. You won't be disappointed. It's in the Knoxville area with a proud owner who races it.
 

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as the return comments indicate, there are arguments for and against an engine swap.

I made an engine swap in my giulietta 101 spider and installed a 1600 giulia engine with a modern DGV downdraft carb.

My aim was a very useable street engine that would be easy to drive in everyday traffic. I think I achieved that goal and I am very happy with the outcome. the engine is rev happy and although I have a proper manifold and a pair of 40 side drafts I am pretty sure I stick with the current set-up. The extra torque is nice and coupled to a later 105 5 speed gearbox mean I can use all 5 gears even on our hilly roads in NZ.

My old man has an original 1300 normale spider and the difference in performance is very obvious.

With regards to the engine mount I used the original mounts except on one side where I just fitted a rubber machine rubber mount about half the height of the original rubber mount.

Engine sits perfect, only sacrifice I had to make is fit a flat pancake intake filter, which is a shame but I have kept all the original parts, i.e engine, mounts, filer housing etc.. so I can revert back to original if needed.

So it means what you want to achieve, there is no wrong or right answer, as long as you keep all the original parts, especially on a valuable car like yours.

cheers Robin
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
sounds like the 1300 with the 1400 kit is the way to go. should I prefer a 101 to a 105 source engine for the rebuild? any issues either way? I am going to keep the tipo 120 SZ engine unmolested in reserve. thanks
 
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