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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
There's some great information about installing a 2L engine into a 105 series Alfa in this thread: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/gt-1965-1974/98571-bigger-engine-guilia-sprint.html

I thought it made sense to summarize that thread here in the Conversions section. The 2L Nord (not Twinspark) engine is a popular swap into the 105 Duetto, Sprint GT, GTV, TI, and Super due to its availability, increased torque, and the wide variety of performance parts available. The 1750 swap is much simpler. Twinspark provides more ultimate power, but are difficult to source in the US.

Of course there are an infinite number of possibilities. This thread will cover what seems to be the most common scenario - a 2L Motor, likely from a Spica car, running the intake manifold and carbs from the original 1600.

Installing a 2L into a 105 Alfa
  • Clutch and Flywheel:This is one of the more difficult parts of the conversion. The 1600 flywheel will not bolt to the 2L crankshaft, so a 2L clutch and flywheel will need to be adapted. There are options for operating the clutch either mechanically or hydraulically. To use the original mechanical clutch you will need to do two things: 1. Have the 2L flywheel machined down to accept a 1600 ring gear, since the 2L flywheel will not fit in the 1600 bell housing without modification.

    2. Source a T/O bearing adapter designed for the conversion, as well as a Sachs T/O bearing. Centerline carries the adapter, part number CP501. Centerline Products: CP501 Throw-Out Bearing Adapter

    The conversion to Hydraulic requires sourcing and installing either a 1969 1750 pedal box and clutch master cylinder or installing a complete hanging pedal assembly from a later car. The '69 pedal box is the simpler solution, as 1969 was the only year with a floor mounted hydraulic clutch, but is somewhat rare and expensive. Either way all the rest of the hydraulic clutch system will also need to be sourced and installed - fluid reservoir, hard line, 1750/2L bell housing, and slave cylinder.
  • Exhaust: The 2L is taller than the original motor but the same height as a 1750, so a front exhaust from a 1969 1750 Spider, GTV, or Berlina will fit correctly and still clear the pedal box. Update: In some cases, the 1969 exhaust will foul against the cable clutch mechanism. Some creative tweaking of the downpipe may be necessary - I was able to get clearance by reshaping the downpipe using a torch and a pipe clamp. This is another area where using the 1969 hydraulic clutch would be advantageous.
  • Intake Manifold / Water Pump: A 1600 Intake Manifold will fit the 2L but has the wrong ports to connect to a 2L water pump. A 1600 Water Pump will not fit an unmodified Spica 2L because the 2L front casting has a ridge that protects the Spica belt. Options are: 1. Source a European 2L carb intake manifold and use the standard 2L water pump, 2. Use the 1600 intake and just block off the extra port on the 2L water pump, or 3. Adapt the 1600 water pump to the 2L, either by grinding off the ridge or swapping in a suitable front cover from a Euro 2L, Bosch injected 2L, or a very rare early Spica car with no protective ridge.
  • Carbs: If reusing the 1600 carbs they will need to be rejetted appropriately for the state of tune of your 2L. The carb support mount will also either need to be extended, or a longer rod sourced. I've seen this done in a quick and dirty manner by creating two notches in the very top of the rod, directly above the existing holes. Not pretty, but it seems to work.
  • Alternator / Generator: The original 1600 Generator will work, but the alternator mount on the 2L motor will need to be modified. Most people doing this conversion install an alternator instead, which does require some minor wiring changes.
  • Starter: The original 1600 Starter will work, but may have some trouble turning a 2L, especially if modified with higher compression. A 3 bolt starter from a later car will work OK without the middle bolt. The starter gear should be 8 tooth to mate properly with the 1600 ring gear, although some have reported using 9 tooth starters with no apparent negative effects. UPDATE: My car is using a rebuilt 2L starter. With the 9T gear, there was no grinding but the starter didn't sound "healthy". There were some metal filings when I pulled the starter. I swapped in an 8T starter gear and it now sounds much better when cranking. If you plan to use the cut-down 2L flywheel with 1600 ring gear, I highly recommend using the correct 8T starter gear, either in an original 1600 starter or a modified 2L starter.
  • Sending Unit: The oil pressure sending unit from the 1600 should be installed. On a Stepnose, it will be necessary to modify the oil pressure idiot light fitting to fit the oil temperature sending unit.
  • Engine to Bellhousing studs: The very long engine to bellhousing studs used on the 2L block will need to be replaced with shorter ones if you're using the 1600 or 1300 manual clutch bellhousing.
  • Drivetrain: The transmission, driveshaft, and rear axle are mostly interchangeable. To fit a 2L gearbox to a 1600 bell housing you will need to block off the hole in the bell housing where the longer 1600 shift rods protrude to engage the reverse switch. This also means you will need to fabricate a boss to install a reverse switch. This post shows one option: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/545211-post6.html
Feel free to post additions / criticisms and I'll edit this post as it seems appropriate.

-Jason
 

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Hi Jason,
This looks like it could be a good reference thread instead of repeating the same info again and again.

One other item worth mentioning is the difference in the length of the engine to bellhousing studs. The very long ones used on the 2L block will need to be replaced with shorter ones if you're using the 1600 or 1300 manual clutch bellhousing.

On the exhaust, I'll be interested in whether your 69 downpipes will fit as predicted. Mine didn't on my 67 Spider when installing a 1750 (block height on a 1750 and 2L are the same). The problem is that the '69 pipes were bent for a car with a hydraulic clutch and wouldn't clear the mechanical clutch linkage of the earlier floor pedals. I was trying to use an aftermarket "SuperSprint" exhaust for a '69 so maybe you'll have better luck with the factory piece. I wound up reusing my original downpipes but they're too close to the floor. At some point I'll need to add an inch or so to them. Anybody else done this? A pre-made spacer between the manifold and the downpipes would be nice.:)
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hi Jason,
This looks like it could be a good reference thread instead of repeating the same info again and again.

One other item worth mentioning is the difference in the length of the engine to bellhousing studs. The very long ones used on the 2L block will need to be replaced with shorter ones if you're using the 1600 or 1300 manual clutch bellhousing.

On the exhaust, I'll be interested in whether your 69 downpipes will fit as predicted. Mine didn't on my 67 Spider when installing a 1750 (block height on a 1750 and 2L are the same). The problem is that the '69 pipes were bent for a car with a hydraulic clutch and wouldn't clear the mechanical clutch linkage of the earlier floor pedals. I was trying to use an aftermarket "SuperSprint" exhaust for a '69 so maybe you'll have better luck with the factory piece. I wound up reusing my original downpipes but they're too close to the floor. At some point I'll need to add an inch or so to them. Anybody else done this? A pre-made spacer between the manifold and the downpipes would be nice.:)
That's the idea. If we can make this a sticky it will hopefully be easier to find. Thanks for the reminder on the studs - will add to the original post.

-Jason
 

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Jason:

Nice work in compiling the various postings into a "how to" on installing larger engines into the 105 chassis. This question comes up about once a month, and it amazes me how BB posters will patiently explain it one more time to each new owner that asks - nothing wrong with being new, but we should encourage these folks to use the "search" function. Still, this latest thread brought out some good points.

Suggestion - how about another compilation that covers the "how to pull an engine? Do I leave the transmission attached?" query that also seems to come up about once a month.

A couple of clarifications to your summary:

I prefer to use the 2L clutch assembly, and hydraulic actuation. To each his own, but this gets me a stronger clutch, as well as a stronger starter. I installed hanging pedals on my Duetto, which was my first conversion - this also gave me dual circuit brakes with a single booster. And, I used a '69 pedal box for my more recent project - my Sprint GT - which didn't require as much modification to the body (I now regret going the hanging pedal route - that was 20+ years ago when these cars weren't quite so valuable).

The hardest part of converting a mechanical clutch to hydraulic is FINDING a '69 pedal box and its associated brake & clutch master cylinders. The installation requires cutting 3 holes in the frame rail, and lining them with tubing to keep rain out of the front hole, and support the compression of the clutch mc bolts in the two rear holes (see pictures below).

If you don't get hydraulic lines with your pedal box, buy the lines & fittings from FedHill USA in Massachusetts. Note that a mix of DIN and SAE flares are needed on the line that connects the '69 clutch master to a later flex hose. The fedhillusa.com website explains the difference between SAE - DIN flares & fittings.

I stayed with the single circuit brakes that came with my '66 Sprint - the single circuit MC bolts to the '69 pedal box with no modifications, so all the hard brake lines can be used. If you chose to go dual circuit, well that's beyond the scope of this write-up.

Regarding transmissions - an early 2L transmission (up to the mid 1970's) uses shift rods that come through the bellhousing just like the earlier cars. So, if you find an early 1970's transmission, the hole in the bellhousing doesn't need to be plugged. And you can keep the reverse light switch in the bellhousing and not relocate it to the shifter tower.

I had reported that I had no difficulties with the '69 exhaust pipe, yet others said it interfered with their pedal boxes. Bill Sinclair seems to have figured out the reason for this - the '69 pipe is designed for hydraulic clutch installations, so it works fine on an early 105 that has a '69 (hydraulic clutch) pedal box, like mine. However, if you go the mechanical clutch route, then you can add modifications to the exhaust pipe to your "to do" list. Another arguement in favor of hydraulic clutches!

I'm sure there are a million other details that could be covered - what I take from all of this is that if you select the right parts, you can avoid some of the pitfalls when doing an engine conversion.
 

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Engine/bellhousing studs

I will be coming up on this problem shortly.

What I need to know is where to get the shorter studs (and what is the correct size)?

I have shopped this question around before without much success. Maryland Metrics was once mentioned, but they only sell in boxes of 100. Not a good solution for me.

Jon
 

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Discussion Starter #6
A couple of updates. First, I finally resolved the exhaust problem by pulling it off the car and reshaping the downpipe using a bar clamp and a propane torch. Not elegant, but cheaper than having a custom downpipe made. I now have about 3/16 clearance between the pipe and the clutch mechanism, where there was no clearance earlier.
Second, I've now tried the 2L starter with both the original 9T starter gear designed to mate with the 130T 2L ring gear, and with the 8T starter gear from a 1600 starter. Yes, the 9T starter works, but there was definite wear on the ring gear and it didn't sound good. I highly recommend sourcing and installing an 8T ring gear.

Jon, sorry I missed your question when I originally posted this. If you're still looking for studs I've had good luck with the local Napa autoparts type places - they generally have big drawers in the back full of metric studs.

-Jason
 

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Hi all, I know this is an older post. But there is some great info here. I have a good 2000 engine, transmission Turbinas, brakes and suspension from a '72. And I am thinking of picking up a '67 Giulia shell. How much work am I getting myself into? Is this doable with a group of mechnically savvy guys after work and on weekends? This would be a autocross car that I might use for dual use, so I'd like to keep it fairly driveable. Thanks!
 

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One other small issue. The carb support rod from the 1600 is about 5 mm too short for the 2L engine. The 2L block is slightly taller than the 1600. I cut and welded a spacer in mine, but Centerline had the 2L support rods (this was a long time ago).

There is a similar problem with the exhaust - using the stock cast manifold, the junction to the down pipe will force the two exhaust pipes to hit the body. Just a little bending (of the tubes)is needed. Take the opportunity to get a new SS from magnaflow with larger pipes.....

While you're at it, the later starters fit as described. Be sure to get the support for the rear of the starter (forward in the car) that connects to the engine mount. the 1.1 HP later 3-bolt starters are great, but they need to be supported.

Don't leave out the steel spacer between the engine and the bell housing.

The 1600 transmission is just like all the others and works fine. The later ones use a different reverse lock-out mechanism, which need a different shift lever.

A 2L Drive shaft fits fine - it's larger in diameter (stronger?). The flange at the differential is different, so swap the last part of the rear u-joint. Even better, get a 2L LSD rear end.

Oops. That's more than one small thing.

Robert
 

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The Sprint GT has a 1600 engine and diff.

Max Banks at Alfaholics now has a 4.3 ring and pinion as well as an up to date limited slip--for the 1600 rear end.:)

The rear assembly from my 101.12 1600 Sprint has been sent to Max for the "build".:cool:
 

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2L Bosch drive train into 1300 Giulia Nuova Super

I just picked up a 2L engine/transmission unit from a Bosch spider with the intent of replacing the 1300 engine in my 1976 Giulia Super. This thread looks like a great information resource as I start to figure out what additional parts I'll need. I'm hoping I can get some specific questions answered that don't seem to have been covered already.

What I have right now: I've got a European market Nuova Super 1300 with the original drive train. The 2L engine has most of the ancillaries on it, including an A/C compressor. The transmission was recently rebuilt but never actually used because the PO gave up on reassembly of the car. I've also got a set of rebuildable Solex ADDHE carbs jetted for a 2L engine.

What I'm trying to accomplish: The point of this project is to have a vintage feeling/looking Super that has a lot more grunt and is capable of being fitted with air conditioning (I live in Austin,TX). This will be a fast touring car - not a track car. I'm comfortable doing serious mechanical work myself.

My questions right now are these:

1) Can I use the 1300 intake manifold on the 2L engine?

2) I've been told that the intake ports on Bosch head are different from earlier designs and I'll need to get an earlier 2L head. Is this true?

3) Can I use the Bosch engine exhaust manifold in the conversion, or is there a better/easier way?

4) I didn't get the drive shaft with the engine/transmission, but I may still be able to pick it up from the PO. Should I?

5) Should I plan on upgrading the radiator?

6) I'm assuming that neither of the sets of cams I have will work well once I have the 2L set up with carbs. Suggestions on cams?

I'm certain there will be more, but I'll stop with these right now.

Thanks.
 

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1) Can I use the 1300 intake manifold on the 2L engine?
2) I've been told that the intake ports on Bosch head are different from earlier designs and I'll need to get an earlier 2L head. Is this true?
3) Can I use the Bosch engine exhaust manifold in the conversion, or is there a better/easier way?
I know exactly zero about Bosch injected Alfa engines, so I can't contribute to questions 1 - 3. My guess to #3 is "no - but your 1300 cast iron headers will work, though you'll need '69 downpipes and they will need some modifications to clear the mech. clutch linkage."

4) I didn't get the drive shaft with the engine/transmission, but I may still be able to pick it up from the PO. Should I?
Don't bother - the spider driveshaft is shorter than the Super's shaft. Just stick with your old driveshaft.

5) Should I plan on upgrading the radiator?
If the old radiator is perfect, it should cool the 2L OK. Alfa cooling systems are somewhat overdesigned. But, it probably isn't perfect. Having it recored with a 3 row, heavy-duty core material would be a good idea.

6) I'm assuming that neither of the sets of cams I have will work well once I have the 2L set up with carbs. Suggestions on cams?
Does the Bosch 2L have a cam advancing mechanism? If so, that will need to go - again, I don't know what that involves. Richard Jemison is the "go to guy" on info about Alfa cams.
 

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Thanks for the response.

I think the 1300 intake manifold should work if the exhaust will - my concern was smaller diameter tubes. Sounds like they are all the same.

Does the Bosch 2L have a cam advancing mechanism? If so, that will need to go - again, I don't know what that involves. Richard Jemison is the "go to guy" on info about Alfa cams.
It's got some sort of external device on the intake cam - I assume it's either an advance mechanism or some sort of sensor.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I think your life would be much easier if you found a Spica vintage head and used that. No VVT and the carb manifold would fit for sure.

On a side note, can you take a pic of the A/C compressor assembly, preferably with a ruler along side to show how far it sticks out from the block? I've done some work on getting A/C in earlier cars and I'd like to see whether the Bosch block / compressor setup would work compared to what I've done with the Spica block.

-Jason
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Here are a couple of pictures. Let me know if you need any other angles or details.
That's perfect, thanks. It's definitely nice and snug against the block, so there shouldn't be any clearance issues. I added A/C to my Super with a SPICA vintage block and it was definitely by guess and by gosh; looks like a Bosch block would have saved me a ton of time and effort.

-Jason
 

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Glad to help, and have confirmation that using a Bosch engine as the starting point was a good choice. Now I just need to find a Spica head.

Can you post pictures of the A/C components in the cabin of your Super? The details of how and where I'll be able to fit the evaporator unit are still very unclear to me.

Thanks.
 

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Adapting a tach drive to a Bosch motor

I'm starting to tear down the engine to assess what I've got. So far I'm encouraged: there is very little apparent wear in the cylinders (no perceptible ridge at the tops), the inside of the water pump looks brand new, and so do many of the gaskets. OTOH, there is a lot of carbon deposited on the piston tops. I was told the donor car had 90K miles on the odometer. I'm starting to suspect the engine had been rebuilt not very long before the car was taken off the road.

The Bosch engine had an electronic tach, while the tach on my Super is driven off a gear in the water pump housing. It looks like the earlier intermittent timing gear assembly has a small gear at the very end to drive the tach, while this is absent on the Bosch part. My question to this thread is: can I simply replace the current gear assembly with an earlier part, or do I need to change the front engine cover or any other parts as well?

Thanks.
 

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Dean, with that A/C compressor down there, you'll need a different fuel filter and electric fuel pump. I think there's a horn down there also. Jason has posted an excellent Super A/C conversion document elsewhere. Jason, you rock! Might check the depth of the compressor to ensure it does not foul the carb support rod and I'd think you'll need to figure out how to attach that rod down below. Wow, you have a lot of "moving parts" in this conversion. It is so much easier to plop in a later Euro carbureted engine with all he ancillaries on it. But with Solexes? Not!
 

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I think the fuel pump and filter will be relatively simple - I can go with an electric pump and filter (and maybe pressure regulator) located conveniently away from the tight spots. The horn may be in the way, but easily movable.

Why would Solexes be any different from other carb options?
 
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